Back in May we asked entrepreneurs to call in to the show and give us their best one-minute pitches. We wanted to see what new ideas and businesses were out there. And we hoped you would blow our minds!
Josh: Hello! This is Josh.
Leigh: Hi Josh. This is Leigh with Dig.
That’s Leigh Isaacson. She had a killer 1-minute pitch for a cool startup. So we asked her to come and pitch in person to our investors.
Her company is called Dig and it’s a dating app for people with dogs. And she’s here today, to raise $1.5 million dollars to help her get a million people to download her app.
To get there, Leigh has to convince the investors that dogs and love are a match made in Heaven.
From Gimlet, this is The Pitch. I’m Josh Muccio.
Today’s investors are:
I’m Soraya Darabi
Soraya, is new on our show. But she’s not new to venture, she’s a founding partner at Trailmix ventures, and she invested in little startup you may have heard of, called Gimlet.
I’m Sarah Downey
Sarah’s a partner at Accomplice where they’ve invested $600 million in over 200 startups so far, startups like Draftkings.
I’m Charles Hudson
Charles started Precursor Ventures, where he’s invested $45 million in over 100 startups to date.
I’m Michael Hyatt
Michael built and sold two software companies for over $500 million dollars and now he invests for himself.
I’m Phil Nadel
Phil has built companies that sold for hundreds of millions of dollars. Now he manages Forefront Venture Partners, one of the largest syndicates on AngelList.
Okay. Take it away Leigh.
Leigh: Hi everyone.
Michael: Hi, hi.
Leigh: Hi. I'm Leigh Isaacson, CEO and cofounder of Dig, the dog person's dating app. A few years ago, my sister was dating a guy who tried to be a dog person for her. By the end of the relationship, he didn't want the dog in his apartment, or he'd put towels down on the couch so the dog didn't touch anything. And she said to me, I wish I just knew from the start that this wasn't going to work because of my dog. Together, my sister and I launched Dig. Dig is the best way for dog lovers and dog owners to find a compatible match and plan a dog-friendly date. We're addressing pain points in both the booming $75 billion pet industry and the growing world of niche dating apps. Both industries are begging for more in-person dog-friendly experiences. In the past few months, we've seen 80,000 total downloads and 25,000 monthly active users looking for love on Dig. We're raising $1.5 million to scale and help people find someone they really dig.
Michael: Well done.
Leigh: Aw thank you.
Michael: You sounded great.
Sarah: umm I have a super important question for you, which is do you have a dog? And if so, please tell me about the dog.
Leigh: Yes. Would you like to see the app and my dog on the app?
Michael: Yes we would!
Charles: By the way, that's one of the best opens I've seen on The Pitch. In terms of just setting the stage.
Michael: Very, very strong.
Leigh: And this is one of the best dogs! This is Penny.
Sarah: Is she like, what is she? She looks like she's a mix.
Leigh: German short-haired pointer.
Sarah: Oh she's so cute.
Soraya: And by the way I see an engagement ring on your hand so I can ask, did you find a dog person?
Leigh: I did find a dog person. We got Penny together.
Sarah: Oh. So you had a fur baby?
Leigh: Yes we did.
The investors are falling all over themselves, when they see Leigh’s fur baby on the app. Now, can she get them as excited about the actual dating part?
Leigh: The way to look through different profiles is actually clicking on these paws at the top.
Phil: Oh okay.
Leigh: So we're not swiping. We're slowing you down a little bit. We show you five at a time.
Michael: You’re pawing.
Charles: Oh and they're all.
Leigh: You can dig, really dig or pass on the profiles you see.
Michael: How about a big dog versus a small dog? Now I've got the best chihuahua on the planet, but I wouldn't, if I was single, I wouldn't want to be dating someone with a great Dane.
Leigh: I'm so glad you brought that up.
Michael: I'm not sure my little girl would like it.
Leigh: It's not about breedists or breedism, right. We wanted to make sure that it's all about compatibility for the owners and for the dogs. So you can search by dog size. And for the same reason you can search for someone without a dog. So my mom has two dogs that doesn't get along with other dogs. She needs to find someone who loves slobber and hair and running in the snow but doesn't have one.
Michael: So whoa, you're saying that people who come on the site who don't have dogs who want to meet someone with a dog?
Leigh: Absolutely. Date someone with a dog is one of our best ads.
Michael: Okay. Educate us on the business now. You got me at dog, because I really like dogs. But are people paying 20 dollars a month to use this already?
Leigh: Users are using the app for free. In the future, we absolutely can go paid.
Michael: Okay. So how does this get big? How do we make money on this? Walk us through the journey of our money on this deal.
Leigh: So we're looking at two major industries, right. And I'm going to start on the dating app side. In the dating app world, the industry is getting bigger and bigger. In 2016 it was a $3 billion industry. By the end of next year is expected to be a $12 billion industry. And one of the ways to break through is to not just have your unique marketplace that you're going after, but unique business opportunities and revenue models. We are looking at this as an opportunity for the dog industry to get in front of some of the most dedicated and emotional dog lovers and dog owners out there on the app and at our dog friendly events we throw across the country.
Michael: How many other niche companies are there that are doing the dog thing?
Leigh: The dog thing specifically, not many. There were a few that tried to do just dog photos that failed. We are the first-to-market that is really exploding and this great quality for dog people to connect.
Michael: So talk about that. The Achilles heel for everybody in your space is taking on active users. And how are you ever going to scale, I mean, you have to drink cash to do that.
Leigh: So we are absolutely the first-to-market, which is the main way that we're defensible against other dog people's dating apps. In terms of the big players, Bumble and Match already have the opportunity to search for dog lovers. We're not necessarily competing against them one to one, because your average dating app user uses three or four dating apps at a time for up to ten hours a week on average. Right. It feels like a part time job. So the niche dating app market is growing because you want to cut to the chase. You want to find someone who has something in common with you right away.
Michael: So what does it cost for you to get an active user? Because they’re unpaid.
Leigh: Right now? Our blended cost of user acquisition is $1.40. Our lowest campaign is down to 50 cents cost per install. That's for women on Facebook, specifically. So we can't put all the money in there or we would just have a women facing app. Which is actually very unique in the dating world. We have about 70% women on our dating app. And men tend to follow where the women go. They just have to hear about us, right?
Sarah: That's totally true.
Michael: That's how Tinder started.
Leigh: Yes. If only we could get on some sort of podcast and tell everyone everywhere that there's women all over Dig right now, right!
Michael: Hey, hey, hey.
Leigh: And so that's a big piece of what we're doing.
Michael: But eventually you have to get to a paid version.
Michael: But like when does that happen? How does that happen?
Leigh: So the network effect, according to our partners in the industry who we're really close to and talking with, we really start to hit that at 100,000 monthly active users. That's exactly what this first part of this raise is going to. So the $350,000 will help our team get paid for the first time, and focus on getting to that 100,000 monthly active user mark. At that point, we will be able to turn on those different revenue streams if we want to, which we absolutely can. And it's also a point where we're very attractive to strategics in the industry.
Phil: What are the different revenue channels that you're talking about?
Leigh: An opportunity to charge users on a subscription tier. So dating apps today, according to industry data, you're seeing about 10% of users choosing to do one of the paid options, between the 2.99 and $34 a month. That's one possible revenue stream. The daily deal, where companies pay to be featured in that spot, is another one.
The daily deal is an ad for a special offer for Dig users, think dog treats and like a dog walker.
Phil: The sponsors and the daily deals you're doing now?
Leigh: The daily deal we're not doing as much paid. We're trading a lot for marketing.
Phil: So how much revenue have you been generating per month the last few months?
Leigh: So total this year has been about $15,000. Each event will be about $3000.
Soraya: What I’m trying to think about, going back to a question we just heard earlier is walk me backwards from a billion dollar business. Because I’m picturing right now in my head a really attractive 50 to 100 million dollar business from what you just described. I’m doing back of the napkin math.
Leigh: And that’s really what we’re focusing on. Because of the consolidation of the market right now. So these major companies, like for example Match owns 45 different dating apps. Spark Networks owns twelve. The way that this world is moving is that they’re gathering up all of these dating apps, especially niche right now. So for example, the billionaire founder of Badoo reached out to us just two weeks ago. They’re starting a $100 million initiative to find niche dating apps and bring them in to the fold.
Michael: Would you sell right now to them if you had the chance?
Leigh: I might.
WHOA! Leigh just said she might sell the business tomorrow.
Now Dig is very, very early. They don’t even have employees they’re paying yet. And she’s already thinking, “Maybe I’ll sell.”
Will the investors go for it now that they know she might cash in early.
That’s coming up, after the break.
Welcome back to the show. When we left off, Leigh said she might be willing to sell to one of the dating app giants, rather than become a big dog herself.
But the investors are aren’t ready to give up on the idea of Dig as a huge company. They’re like, after dogs and dating, how do you blow this thing up? Here’s Sarah.
Sarah: You’re talking about the niche. The dog lover piece and how important that is, it sounds like. Like, are you going to stay at that niche? Or like, I’m asking because I’m an animal person through and through. Like my first job was a dog salesperson at age 16, so I know a weird amount about dog breeds. But I’m a cat person, if I had to pick. So like will there be a place for us cat people? Or is that too outside of your niche do you think?
Leigh: So both industries, both the pet industry and the dating industry, are interested in the other opportunities that we bring like that. We have people come to our events saying, I’m not single, but I want to meet other families with dogs, because it’s hard to go somewhere that’s both kid friendly and dog friendly.
Michael: You might have a harder time for guys showing up for cats. I love cats.
Sarah: Don’t shit on cat guys!
Phil: I want to hear the answer.
Leigh: To answer your question, the dating app world is interested in more things than just dating already.
Leigh: So Badoo for example, they own Bumble, they own Chappy, and you have seen Bumble now expand into Bumble Biz and Bumble BFF. They don’t see it as their main revenue driver because you don’t have that urgency and that amount of time you’re spending on the app to find a friend to go to the dog park with. But it’s ways to reach them. Now in the pet industry, they’re very interested in reaching those other types of people as well. So both sides are looking to us as this opportunity to get in front of different types of people. We’re starting with dating.
Soraya: I get really excited by founders who have audacious visions. Because even if they don't meet that vision, if they get one third there or halfway there, it's often a great, great success for all. I heard you say, we're highly acquirable by the Badoo’s of the world. But I also heard you say, which got me a little bit more excited, you're thinking about verticalization. And you're thinking about other niche dating apps that you could own. So which is it? Do you want to be acquired in three years for $50 million bucks? Or do you want to verticalize for different passion areas -- people who like gaming for instance?
Leigh: So we built this app knowing that the verticalization was a possibility, being acquired or entering or partnering with the dog industry was a possibility. And being acquired or partnering with the dating app industry was a possibility. Where we are right now is building the foundation to be exciting for all of those. If we’re not acquired or we decide not to go that route and build out in different ways, we have all of these revenue streams that we’ll be able to turn on and go that direction.
It’s like Leigh is saying, We can do all the things. But it seems like the investors just want her to commit to one or the other. It comes down to this -- is she trying to get massive, or does she want to sell early?
But either way, investors need to know how is she going to get more users on the app.
Phil: So how many markets are you in now?
Leigh: We have users in all 50 states, but we have done events in 14 cities, I believe.
Phil: So you have a concentration of users, would you say, in those 14 cities?
Leigh: Yeah. Our biggest concentration is New York, LA, and Dallas.
Charles: Of the pet parent population, how many of them do you think, what percentage think pet friendliness in a mate is a deal breaker? Obviously they all care. But I’m trying to figure out who’s the enthusiast audience for whom this product is a must-have?
Leigh: It’s huge. I mean, you have to decide what survey you want to look at. But you can look at Match’s and Badoo’s own surveys saying that men are much more likely to get liked if they have a photo of a dog in their photo. And there’s more than 70% of dog owners sleep with their dog in their bed now. So the dog is gone from.
Michael: Guilty as charged.
Sarah: Same, my cats, they flank me every night.
Leigh: So the dog has gone from the doghouse to in your house to in your bed and now you want to take your dog with you wherever you go.
Michael: My chihuahua snores.
Leigh: Your chihuahua snores? What does it sound like?
Michael: She’s an old lady. She’s like 12 now. She snores.
Soraya: And Leigh, there's also the data about how millennials are pushing off childbearing.
Soraya: But they’re not delaying owning pets.
Michael: So how do you scale this to be a bigger business? Like, this still drinks money. I mean, you’re raising a small, small amount of money. How does this become. How many users do we need here to be really interesting? You said 100,000, we need it to quadruple.
Leigh: 100,000 monthly active users will get us to that point of the interest for the bigger, the Badoos of the world. That type of thing. Badoo, when they asked us this question, they said, how are you going to get us to the million downloads?
Leigh: That was their number. And so we were able to project out showing them our Google campaign, Apple search, our Facebook and Instagram campaigns and say we expect, to get there with the 1.5.
Michael: Do you have any lead venture capitalist for your round right now?
Leigh: No. This is officially the start of the seed round. We have been pitching and we have about $350,000 soft circled. They all would love to know what happens today.
Charles: So I’m in for 10,000. I’m not convinced that this is. Dating is a really consolidated industry. I’ll be honest, I’m not sure you can build a huge business here. You’re on to something. And we’re investors in two dog related companies, Fuzzy and Dog Parker.
Leigh: Love both of them.
Charles: Both of which are doing well.
Leigh: Both are our partners, too.
Charles: Yeah. And I’m a big believer in the category. And I think you’re going to figure something out. I’m putting in less than our fund would normally do because I think there is a good chance that you will get an early acquisition offer, and I want to feel aligned with you that if that’s the right thing for you to do that you should take it. But I think you have good energy, you have good insights. I think you’re on to something. And I think at scale, there’s a bunch of things on the business model side that will just work better when you have a larger audience that are tough to prove today.
Leigh: Thank you very much.
Charles is in. It’s a pretty small investment, but it’s Leigh’s only Yes so far. Now can she get more of the investors to bite? Here’s Soraya.
Soraya: What would get me really excited about this is you mapping out how this goes beyond the I'm one of five dating apps somebody uses for the six months every two years that they're single until they're married. I'd also be really keen on this business if you said to me, Soraya, I want to do ten different niche apps and go long on those, consolidate and take on Badoo.
Leigh: Soraya, I want to do ten different niche dating apps and go - what did you say?
Michael: Now you're getting it.
Leigh: No, that is absolutely an opportunity. We see this right now as the main thing we're focusing on because it's the largest market, they spend the most, they're right in that niche demographic that you really need.
Phil: How much runway does a million and a half give you?
Leigh: Twelve months. And that's really not growing our team very much. That's paying our team for the first time, trying to get to that million downloads, that's projecting out our spend on marketing side. A few different product developments. And really focusing on getting those downloads.
Phil: You think that gets you to a million downloads?
Michael: What valuation are you at for this 1.5?
Leigh: $4.5 million valuation. Our last round we raised at a $3 million cap.
Michael: And you're fixed on that number?
Leigh: No. Uh look, I've been talking to people about this for a little while. That's the one that I've gotten the most. It feels the right, it feels right to us. But at the same time, we are very open to this being my first startup and hearing your feedback on that number.
Phil: I'm glad you asked for my feedback on that number.
Leigh: I would love your feedback.
Phil: So there's a lot here that I like. But in terms of traction, it's not that far along. But I think it’s, you're in a great place. You're first in an interesting niche market. I love the fact that you have additional revenue channels beyond just charging users. But I do think that the valuation is higher than other companies with more traction. So that's my concern. So I'm going to pass for right now.
Leigh: Okay. Thank you very much.
Sarah: Well I have the dubious distinction of marrying two people that I met on dating apps here and divorcing both of them. So the first one was sort of a generalist dating app, and then the second one was very niche, which I won't name here. So I believe in that. I'm also like I said a pet person. My mom is a full time cat, she works at a cat shelter, and is the person who places cats with people.
Leigh: She's the cat matchmaker?
Sarah: She really is.
Leigh: I love that.
Sarah: Yeah, she's the best. And so there's a lot that I really like about this. But I still, even when I'm doing angel investments, I want there to be like the 100x return potential. And I just feel like there's a cap on this. So I don't think it's a fit for me now.
Leigh: Okay. Thank you.
Michael: So uh. I'm a pass at 4.5 million. I'm much more interested, like Phil, at 3 million and here's why. You came in here, you've done a great pitch. I mean, you really shine. I think it's likely that you're going to get acquired. And the number's not going to be that high, but it's going to change your life. And I think it's going to be a lot of money for you. But I'd rather have a better multiple because I think you're going to get bought out at a very reasonable number, and I think it's going to be fantastic. I'm certainly interested at that lower valuation because I think the outcome is sooner than later.
Leigh: Thank you very much.
Soraya: Okay. So. You had me on the edge of my seat. You’re not only eloquent but you’re highly convincing. It’s ultimately a pass. And it’s a pass because I couldn’t hear a definitive direct vision for you as to how this is your swing for the fence. I was kind of leading you down a few different paths with my questions, and I think convincingly you said yes to all. And so if you come back to me in a few months and you have that definitive plan for becoming a billion dollar business, whether it’s verticalizing or turning yourself into a competitor for Wag, for instance, I think I’d be very interested in taking a second look.
Leigh: Thank you very much.
Michael: Thanks for coming
Phil: Thank you Leigh. Really good job.
Leigh: Thank you.
After Leigh left, I stuck my head in the room to ask Charles why his investment was so low.
Josh: Charles, why invest 10K?
Charles: Sometimes the check is smaller. I just didn’t feel like our normal full sized 250k check was the right one in this case.
Charles: Mostly, I agree with Soraya, I don’t see this becoming a gigantic company. Everything we’ve done in pet has ended up being bigger than I thought going in. So I think there’s a chance that it ends up being a respectable return for our fund even on 10K.
Charles: And we’re people pickers. And I’m like, she’s a person I want to back. What’s the right amount?
Soraya: I love that. I love that.
Josh: You were fine with the 4.5 she mentioned?
Charles: Four. I agree with my colleagues here. 4.5, I was like, my hunch is by the time we get due diligence, 4.5 will feel a little generous. As I was like, we’re in the right universe, and if I feel like 3 or 3.5 was a better price then we would have probably ended up there. And these gentlemen cut right to the chase.
Josh: They did the negotiating for you.
Charles: Saved us all a click.
Leigh gave her pitch almost two months ago now. When we come back, we’ll find out if all that negotiating, turned into any bones in the doghouse.
Leigh is the first person to make it on the show by calling in to The Pitchline. And producer Heather Rogers recently talked to her about what that’s been like.
Heather: Can you describe to me what you were feeling when you called in?
Leigh: Well the first time I called in it went to voicemail so I left the full pitch as a voicemail and I was gonna leave it as that. And I said, you know what, No. I dedicated this amount of time in my calendar to trying to get through. I'm gonna do it. So I called back. Was so surprised that Josh answered because I hear him in my ears every Wednesday. So it was really great to talk to him.
Heather: Did you tell anyone that Josh had picked up your call?
Leigh: Oh I think I told everyone. I think I told everyone. Yeah!
Heather: So did you think you might actually end up on the show?
Leigh: I was super hopeful. I didn’t know originally or i didn’t understand originally that y’all were picking one person out of all the people calling in. And then Josh was like, we’re picking, like, one! We picked y’all for this opportunity. And that was so exciting.
Heather: Yeah. So then in June, you got on a plane and came to came to New York City. Can you tell me what that was like?
Leigh: Um, you know I get nervous but it's an exciting excitement type nerves. I think I've used the word excited like 40 times already. I'm when I try to switch it up but I really, really was. You know one thing I do before any investment pitch I call my sister. My sister’s my cofounder so I called her and we just talked about all of the awesome things going on at Dig right before I went on into the studios. I mean truly was on the phone until I walked into the room.
Heather: Did it go the way you expected it would?
Leigh: I didn't expect everyone to just start laughing and relax immediately and just get right into it. And so as soon as that happened I said, you know, no matter what, I feel like this is gonna be a great experience.
Heather: Mhmm. OK. So they loved you. And I'm wondering is it disappointing to have such a good pitch and then not get very much money?
Leigh: I think not until you take a step back and you're like, Oh I think I got the least amount offered to me of anybody who's ever been on the show who's been offered an investment. That can sound negative. But it just truly didn't feel that way.
Heather: Does that $10,000 come with the prestige of Charles Hudson? Like, does that give you leverage?
Leigh: Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, the question from every investor we get is, Well who else is interested or who's committed. That's the big word. What's the difference between interested committed and definitely in, money in the bank. And so having someone like Charles Hudson and Precursor Ventures those names mean a ton to having everyone else we're talking to decide to put the money down. And so I think the more we can talk with them and really get them truly on board the faster all these other dominoes will fall.
Charles was the only one who invested in the room. But the others gave her something to chew on after the fact. They wanted her to dream bigger.
Leigh: Soraya was really pushing me on this, which I loved. You know, she wants to hear that how are we going to be a billion dollar company. And that was the big question. Um. Some VCs only want their five-year 10x return, which we would love that too. But I think it's great that there's another opportunity on top of that. You don't just have to follow that path and go huge or die. You can also have a smaller exit, earlier. There's a difference between staying open to other opportunities and, you know, staying narrow-minded and only focusing on one goal. There are many different paths and opportunities coming our way on top of that.
Heather: And so for an investor to say I want you to choose which direction you're gonna go right now doesn't feel right to you?
Leigh: Absolutely. Yep.
Heather: Is it ever confusing?
Leigh: It is confusing because you want to, you're listening to people with a lot more experience than you. This is my first startup and I recognize that. I'm coming in here with that part of risk, right. That you don't know how well I can grow or run a company because I haven't done it before.
Leigh: Umm I completely get it and I appreciate it. But everyone has a different idea.
Sounds like Leigh is content to agree to disagree.
But there’s another issue that came up in the room, one that struck a cord with Leigh -- valuation. Right after she left the pitch room, on a park bench just outside the Gimlet studios, she started making some calls -- to her co-founder, to Dig’s CTO, and to one of their angel investors. And the decision was unanimous. Right there, on the phone, they agreed to lower the valuation.
From $4.5 to $3 million.
Heather: What do you think about lowering the valuation?
Leigh: I can continue to pitch and you know put my foot down on the 4.5 million dollar valuation or I can take this feedback from investors who want to be a part of Dig and believe in us and are willing to come in if we make this adjustment. Maybe it's because they're getting a great deal. That works for me right now because we do need cash. We need cash to make sure that we can continue doing this incredible work that we're doing to get people on the app and meeting each other.
Heather: Mm-hmm. I mean, it's so interesting that you immediately walked out the room and just applied something that you got from, from the room and started acting on it.
Leigh: Yeah. That is my M.O. That's what I'm good at. I'm able to take things and turn it around and, and try to make the most out of it.
Leigh is still speaking with Charles, so the money isn’t in the bank just yet. And we should note, that even though Leigh lowered the valuation to 3mm like Phil and Michael said they wanted, that wasn’t enough to seal the deal. They’re happy to wait on the sidelines until Leigh has more revenue.
But lowering the valuation does seem to be working on other investors. Leigh says she’s now in due-diligence with a handful of investors which she hopes will add up to $1 million of their $1.5 million raise.
As you can tell, Leigh is super excited about the future. And coming soon -- the first Dig wedding! Two people who met on the app are going to tie the knot.
Leigh: It's a 70 year old and a 53 year old. His second marriage and her first marriage. And she said that she'd rather not have us involved until after the wedding because they didn't want to jinx it.
Leigh: And so I was like, I'm going to come and we're going to bring like puppies, and like had all these things. And I was like, Oh, right OK. It's like your real life. And so I don't have too much information and I won't get it until afterwards but I fully respect her decision.
Heather: I love it. You're going to bring puppies to the wedding.
Leigh: I’ll bring puppies. What do you want? I love it. I'm so excited for them. Absolutely.
Behind the scenes here at The Pitch, we’re pretty jazzed about how our first call-in show turned out with a caller getting funding! We’re so excited that we’re going to do it again!
On Wednesday, September 11, from 1 to 4pm eastern, we’ll be taking your calls. So come prepared, because this time the pitches will need to be even shaper. You only have 30 seconds. Thirty seconds! So choose your words wisely.
But who am I kidding? You listen to this show. You know how to give a good pitch.
More details to come, so stay tuned. And I’ll see you next week.
Our show is hosted by me, Josh Muccio. Produced by Heather Rogers and Olympic hopeful Kareem Maddox. We are edited by Blythe Terrell and Sara Sarasohn.
Theme music by The Muse Maker. Original compositions from Breakmaster Cylinder, Bobby Lord, Peter Leonard, Cobey Bienert and The Muse Maker. We are mixed by Enoch Kim.
Lisa Muccio planned the recording of this pitch.
And here’s a quick reminder, no offer to invest is being made to or solicited from the listening audience on today’s show.
Follow The Pitch on Spotify and listen for free, or find new episodes wherever you listen.
We’ll be back with a new episode next week.