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#114 Apocalypse Soon

This week: Yes Yes No returns and takes us to the brink of apocalypse. Further Reading The yes yes nos tumblr The tweet in question Tide Pod Pizza Tweet Uganda Knuckles in VR Chat Who Killed Captain Alex trailer Logan Paul “Why 2017 was the best year of my life” video “Somebody touch my…

January 18, 2018
View show transcript

PJ VOGT: Hey everybody, we are back. It’s 2018. New year, new Reply All. Uh, so a little bit of programming information up top.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, some housekeeping.

PJ: So a question that we get a lot from listeners, uh, the answer is always different, is when is the next episode of the show coming out? My colleague, Alex Goldman, has built a tool to tell people. Alex, what is it?

ALEX: Uh, it is a website. And I know that I often build websites and then abandon them. I promise that I will continue to update this one. It’s called You go to this website—

PJ: It answers one question for you.

ALEX: It- the question is, is there a new Reply All this week?

PJ: And this tool will probably come in handy, basically this spring. Um… short version of a long story, there’s a bunch of very good changes happening in the lives of people who work on the show. Babies are being born. Um, which means we’ll be a little bit short-staffed. Which means we will be publishing slightly less. Like, probably a couple times a month, for a bit.

ALEX: Alright. Enjoy the show.

[Theme music]

PJ: From Gimlet, this is Reply All. I’m PJ Vogt.

ALEX: And I’m Alex Goldman.

[Theme music ends]

ALEX GOLDMAN: Welcome once again to Yes Yes No, the segment on our show where our boss, Alex Blumberg, comes to us with inscrutable nuggets from the internet and we try to explain them to him.


PJ VOGT: What have you got?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Uh, ok. Here’s what I got. Uh. So I knew we were doing this, and so I sent out a callout to sort of collect inscrutable tweets.

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And a lot more confusing stuff came back than- than normal. Like it seems to be a very particularly confusing time on the internet right now.

ALL: (laugh)


ALEX BLUMBERG: If my little sort of occasional explorations are any indication. And there was a bunch of different tweets that were sort of clustered around this confusing meme, and there were a bunch of tweets that all seemed to focus on this confusing meme. So I started to notice like these like sort of patterns. And then, I got to this- this tweet, which seems to touch on every single meme that was- that was out there that’s confusing on the internet right now. So I think if we can decipher this—

ALEX GOLDMAN: We understand the internet in its entirety?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah. I think this might take us there.


PJ: Ok so what’s the tweet?

ALEX BLUMBERG it’s from a Twitter user named @MrRamgon9, but his- the name on his Twitter account is Jesus Uganda Knuckles.

PJ: (sighs) Ok.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Uganda Knuckles sounds bad.

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And then there’s a picture. And the picture has a caption, “The four horsemen of apocalypse.” And then, there’s- there’s a four square grid below. And in the top left square is a Tide pod—

PJ: Mmhmm.

ALEX BLUMBERG: —with the word underneath it that says, “famine.”

(laughs) And then, the picture to the right of it is a picture of some sort of cartoon bird with a headband—

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: —the bird is red. That says, “war.” And then in the lower left quadrant, this is a photograph of a white guy with a funny hat on his head and some sort of shawl, holding his hands to his mouth in sort of a pensive look. Um, and the caption, “death.”

And then in the lower right quadrant, there is a picture of like, sort of a cartoon wolf looking at an empty bowl, and sort of a Mickey Mouse-y kind of character also with an empty bowl. And then the caption there is “pestilence.”

So four quadrants: famine, war, death, pestilence.

ALEX GOLDMAN: I have never been happier than listening to you describe this tweet. (laughing) It’s so funny.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Nothing, nothing makes sense. And also, up at the top, there’s this text.

I guess it’s sort of like a Creole/Patois sort of like dialect. “Bruddhas we will fights wars for de qween and to find de wae.” And “wae” is spelled W-A-E. And “qween” is spelled Q-W-E-E-N.

PJ: Ok. I think this is the most complicated tweet that you’ve brought into a Yes Yes No. Um, and I think you’re right. Like, I think if you can understand this tweet, it is like a codex for everything that has happened on the internet in 2018 so far. Like all two weeks. I also think that probably the reason that it’s called the four horsemen of the apocalypse is that I think the person who made this tweet feels like “once you understand and combine these four memes you will sort of feel like we are approaching the end of the world.” Um, so that’s where we wanna get you. But this is like dense. There’s a lot there.  

ALEX BLUMBERG: I’m-  yes. I am prepared to settle in. Let’s do the ritual.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh. PJ Vogt, Do you understand this tweet?

PJ: I understand a lot of this tweet. I don’t understand all of this tweet.

I know about- I know about the, the white man with the green hat. And I know about the red bird.

ALEX GOLDMAN: I know about the Tide pod and the bears and the white guy in the green hat.

PJ: Ok.


ALEX GOLDMAN: So I think we might be at about 100 percent.

PJ: Between us, we have one yes.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Alex Blumberg: Do you understand this tweet?

ALEX BLUMBERG: No. No. I understand no quadrant.

ALEX GOLDMAN: K. So how do you want to start?

PJ: So like the first harbinger of the end of the world, like the sign that like culture is over and the apocalypse is nigh is this first image: “famine.”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Alright. So ok.

PJ: Tide pods.  

ALEX GOLDMAN: Um. So you’re familiar with Tide pods, right? Like the very concept of… the very nature of them.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Like the laundry detergent?



ALEX GOLDMAN: Tide pods came out five years or so ago. They were very popular. And one of the side effects of the existence of Tide pods is that kids think they look like candy—

ALEX BLUMBERG: Right. They do like candy.

ALEX GOLDMAN: —and want to eat them.

ALEX BLUMBERG: You can’t not look at a Tide pod and- and- think… The first thing that goes to your head is like, “Yum. Gooey candy.”

PJ: It looks like a new kind of Starbursts.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah, exactly.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh, The Onion wrote an op-ed in like 2015 that was from the perspective of a three-year-old wanting to eat Tide pods.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And they wrote one earlier this year that was, “Tide debuts new sour apple detergent pods.”

ALEX BLUMBERG and PJ: (laughs)


ALEX BLUMBERG: Wait, what is the… Can you do the- can you do the three-year-old one wanting to eat the Tide pod? Just the- I just wanna hear it.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Um, let me see if I can find it. Uh. (laughs) It’s called “So help me God, I’m going to eat one of those multi-colored detergent pods.” The first graf is, “Anybody who knows me will tell you the same thing: I get what I want.”

ALEX BLUMBERG and PJ: (laughs)

ALEX GOLDMAN: (reading) “Whether it’s food, being held, my binky, you name it. If I decide I’d like it, you damn well better believe I don’t rest until I get it. And from the very second I saw those blue/red detergent pods come out of the shopping bag last week, I immediately knew that, come hell or high water, I would eat one of those things.”

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughing) Right. Exactly. Ok.

ALEX GOLDMAN:  So you guys and the very fact that you have looked at those Tide pods and thought to yourself, “I want to eat those.” You’ve touched on, like, a bizarre cultural happening that is happening right now. Suddenly, the nascent desire by adults to eat Tide pods—

PJ: Not three-year-olds.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah. Has like come to the fore, and everybody’s essentially declaring their desire to eat them.

PJ: In what form? Like- how- what do you mean?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Ok, so here’s a tweet by a person named Megan @littlestwayne. It says, “me eating Tide laundry detergent pods.” And then it’s a gif of Oprah looking like she’s eating something that she’s delighted about eating.

PJ: Ok.

ALEX GOLDMAN: it has 8,000 retweets. 25,000 likes.  So it went from this thing that was like purely conceptual and everybody joking about it, to like, a weird, disgusting semi-reality.

PJ: What do you mean?

ALEX GOLDMAN: People starting posting photographs of them preparing Tide pods on food.

PJ: Ok.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Here is a picture of someone who has made- baked a pizza in the oven, with a bunch of Tide pods on it. The finished pizza is covered in like laundry detergent slime.

PJ: It’s so disgusting too, because when they cook, they turn to like green… They look like escargot.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And the caption to this tweet is “Tide pods are the best thing ever to go on pizza.” And then a smiley face that’s drooling. It’s so revolting.

PJ: So I think one thing that I’m now understanding is Tide pods seem like the joke that everybody agrees on. Like it’s not a joke that’s being used as a weapon by one group against another group.

ALEX GOLDMAN: No, no. It’s actually pretty innocuous.


ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s like the entire internet realized, “Oh, you want to do that too? I thought that was just me!”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Right, but then it- it… As is always the case, it gets kind of like… The tail end of it gets weird and unpleasant.

PJ: Ok, so what’s that?

ALEX GOLDMAN: So Youtubers who specialize in the most sort of cynical kind of entertainment were like, “Oh. We’ll get a lot of hits if we actually eat these.”

PJ: Wait, can you play that video?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yes, hold on just a second. Let me bring it up. Ok, here we go. So it is a guy with blue hair sitting in front of a rainbow background.  

LOGAN PAUL: At 22 years old I bought my first house for 6 million dollars and moved my two boys in with me.
BOY 1: What’s up?
BOY 2: Ayy!
LOGAN PAUL: I bought a school bus, and then turned it into a cool bus.

I met a boy band named Why Don’t We. I adopted them as my little brothers and directed a music video of theirs that got 30 million views, then made a song with them that got 169 million views that you may have heard.
[song plays]

ALEX GOLDMAN: I want to point out that he’s dressed up as a minion.

PJ: Yeah and then, that’s him doing the hook…

ALEX BLUMBERG: … I ain’t no Scooby Doo.

LOGAN: “Girl whatcha tryna do” Guys I also made a song with Designer, and then I went to the tallest building in the world. The Burj Khalifa.

PJ: So that’s Logan Paul.  Ok so here- the reason (laughs)… The reason that Logan Paul… The reason he’s in this painting…

ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s not a painting. The quadrant.

PJ: The reason he’s in this tweet..

AB: It’s not a painting. It’s apocalyptic quadrant.

PJ: Every tweet is a painting to me. Um is like normally what happens is he’ll do something kind of shocking and adults will freak out, but kids will love him, and like it’s fine, and he never really gets in trouble. That sort of ended a few weeks ago when he decided to fly to Japan and shoot like a fun, creepy video in what people refer to as the suicide forest in Japan.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah, oh I heard about this. It’s like this forest in Japan where it’s sort of known that people go there and that’s a place where people go to commit suicide, essentially, it’s sort of like–

PJ: Yeah, there’s, there’s like- for some reason there’s no cell phone service there, or there’s very little cell phone service. And people have written about it. He chose to go there because it’s a known thing.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And was he hoping to see?

PJ: I don’t think he was  hoping to see a body, I think it was more like, “this will be creepy.”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, “the atmosphere of a place where people have killed themselves will be great for my video.”

PJ: I’m going to show you like a very short clip from the video that he ended up shooting. So they go in, they immediately… and this was a surprise to them. They immediately encounter an actual corpse, which they show, they blur the face, but they like zoom in on the body. And then this is them reacting, sort of.


MAN (MAYBE LOGAN PAUL): Like it’s not like we could see it.
MAN 2: It’s right there. But you can’t see it.
MAN: How our lives unfold. There’s no going back. I’ve seen things I can’t unsee.
WOMAN: We found a dead body.

PJ: He’s wearing a Toy Story alien hat the whole time.


LOGAN: What the fuck.
LOGAN: (loud weeping) I’d say this is top 5 craziest things I’ve ever experienced in my life. Top 1. This is the craziest thing I’ve ever experienced. I ain’t gonna be sober for this.

PJ: Now he’s drinking sake. Yeah.

LOGAN: This is literally the [squeak] craziest thing of my life. I’m sorry for swearing so much. I’m already getting the flag for demonetization bro…

PJ: So yeah. It’s just a mess.


ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s really, really, really inappropriate.

PJ: It’s like a person who’s like… does not have…

ALEX GOLDMAN: He doesn’t have the capacity to like grapple with this thing.

PJ: Right.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Nor the good sense to not edit it and post it on his channel.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And so, and also like all his viewers… How many viewers does he have?


ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah, so millions of teenagers who subscribe to his channel sort of like thinking they were going to get another funny Logan Paul stunt all of a sudden saw like a dead body in the forest.

PJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it became this huge thing. And he had, like, a defensive apology, and then he had a less defensive apology. And he’s actually kind of disappeared from public view for a few weeks.



ALEX BLUMBERG: So but that’s what… That’s the Logan Paul.

PJ: So “death” is Logan Paul. Logan Paul is, like, one more harbinger of the coming apocalypse is Logan Paul, who is “death.”


ALEX BLUMBERG: Alright, we have marched our way through three of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

PJ: I don’t know what “pestilence” is. “Pestilence” is like, I’m a complete and full no on.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh, it actually kind of… It plugs into uh, to Logan Paul a little bit.

PJ: Ok, so what is “pestilence?”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Pestilence (laughs)…

ALEX BLUMBERG: You don’t know what the word means?

PJ: I know what the word means. I think, actually.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah, now that I mention it, wait do I know what the… Pestilence is just illness, right?

PJ: But they always say, like, “disease and pestilence,” right?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh, a fatal epidemic disease, especially bubonic plague.

PJ: Oh, so it’s like—

ALEX BLUMBERG: Plague. It’s plague.

PJ: Yeah, ok.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Alright, so—

PJ: So the pestilence frame, just to remind you is two like sort of old-timey, Disney looking, possible bears.

ALEX GOLDMAN: It is an old cartoon from the 30s, and it’s the Three Little Bears. But for some reason, the three little bears in this cartoon are like sort of fresh off the boat Italian stereotypes.

PJ: Okay.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And all it is a five second clip of them coming in and seeing their food has been eaten. And this is what happens.

CARTOON BEAR: Somebody toucha my spaghet!!

ALL: (laugh)

CARTOON BEAR: Somebody toucha my spaghet!!

ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s it.


ALEX GOLDMAN: But people thought that was very funny.

PJ: It is very funny.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And started using it- started using it as a way to like-

ALEX BLUMBERG: There’s something funny about spaghet.

PJ: Yes.

ALEX GOLDMAN: They started taking this very short animation clip with this funny phrase in it and started remixing it in all of these different ways. Like there are a million different “Somebody toucha my spaghet!”s on the internet now.

PJ: How many retweets did that original thing get?

ALEX GOLDMAN: It has 112,000 retweets.

ALEX BLUMBERG: That’s amazing.

PJ: That’s like the only good thing about the internet.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And like… and- and- and I would posit that if it was somebody- “somebody toucha my spaghetti,” no re–

PJ: You’re not going anywhere.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah. Not funny.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Two retweets. Literally, the cut off the “I,” and it’s 100,000 retweets.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So I’m sure you’re familiar with the fact that people really like making jokes about the Smash Mouth song “Allstar.” Do you know about this?


PJ: People just like making jokes about it. Like, they like-

ALEX BLUMBERG: Wait, what? How does it?

ALEX GOLDMAN: (singing) Somebody once told me the world was gonna roll me…

PJ: Did you know it and you just wanted to make him sing it?

ALEX GOLDMAN: (singing) … I ain’t the sharpest tool the shed.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Wait, I think I–

ALEX GOLDMAN: (singing) Hey now, you’re all an allstar…


ALEX GOLDMAN: (singing) Getcha game on, get paid!

ALEX BLUMBERG: That song! Right!


PJ: So people will do things like they’ll have a tweet where they’ll just say in lowercase, “some,” and then in capital, “BODY”


PJ: Because they just know that that is enough to like put that song in your head for three days.


ALEX GOLDMAN: So anyway, so, this is an example of what people have done with it.

CARTOON BEAR: –body toucha my spaghet!  

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s the entire thing (laughs).

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) That is so weird.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, uh, another really good one is there’s… I’m just gonna let him soak it in for a little while.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) Cuz they both say “somebody.”

ALL: (laugh)

ALEX GOLDMAN: This one has even less context. It’s a song from one of the Kirby video games. Kirby’s just a video game character who’s like a big, purple ball.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And someone just made this using the music from the game.

PJ: I thought he was big, pink cloud.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Pink cloud, that’s what he is. A big, pink ball is what he is.

CARTOON BEAR: (in beat with the music) Some! Body! Toucha! My! Spaghet! Somebody, somebody toucha my spaghet! Some! Body! Toucha! My! Spaghet! Somebody, somebody toucha my spaghet! Some! Body! Toucha! My! Spaghet!

ALEX GOLDMAN: You get it.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Um, here is a scene from Full Metal Jacket.

MALE VOICE: What is your major malfunction, numbnuts?
CARTOON BEAR: Somebody toucha my spaghet!



PJ: That’s it? It doesn’t go anywhere? No neo nazi picks it up? Nobody turns it into a weapon that they hurt somebody else with?

ALEX GOLDMAN: No, someone turns it into a weapon that they hurt somebody else with.

PJ: Really?


ALEX GOLDMAN: Um, so you may be familiar with another Youtuber, goes by the name PewDiePie.

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Do you know PewDiePie?

ALEX BLUMBERG: I do. I know a lot about PewDiePie.

ALEX GOLDMAN: The most popular Youtuber in the world.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Right, he got popular by playing video games that people would watch him play on Youtube.


PJ: He also just, just as like an addendum to the Logan Paul thing. PewDiePie got in trouble recently for saying the n-word. And then he’ll sort of like, apologize in like a “I’m sorry you took me using the worst racial slur in a bad way,” kind of way.


PJ: And then he’ll show back up. And when Logan Paul got in trouble, PewDiePie was sure to chime in and say like, “Well people are- people are- why are people not more mad at him when they were so mad me?” Or like, “I would never do what he did!” Like he made sure to make this about him in a way that was… Like watching an adult person do that was very strange.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Weirdly I feel like what’s sort of going on… is that I think PewDiePie is using Logan Paul and Jake Paul to try and rehabilitate his reputation. By being like, “look how bad these people are.”

PJ: Uh huh.

ALEX GOLDMAN: What that looks like is PewDiePie puts up a video criticizing Logan Paul for putting up the video in the first place, criticizing what he thinks is a terrible apology video, and then YouTube comes in and actually takes PewDiePie video down, and he says it’s because they think he was bullying Logan Paul.

PJ: They said it was bullying to criticize somebody for mockingly taking a video with a dead person.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Look. Moderation is an imperfect art.

PJ: That’s wild.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Youtube’s just doing their best.


PJ: Ok.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So in response, PewDiePie put up a video called, “Youtube touched my spaghet.” (laughs)

PJ: What’s the video?

ALEX GOLDMAN: It’s him talking about how YouTube took his down his video and how mad he was about that, and what an incredible double standard it is, and what kind of favoritism they play with the Pauls, and him just laughing hysterically about how funny “Somebody touched my spaghet” is.

PJ: At the same time?


ALEX BLUMBERG: Let me see it, let me see it.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Alright so here, here he is.

PEWDIEPIE: Take all these horrible things that happen. Sexual harassment, murder… but when someone toucha your spaghet…

ALEX BLUMBERG: He couldn’t think of anymore!

PJ: (laughs)

PEWDIEPIE: That’s when you know you have to stand up and use your voice. CARTOON BEAR: Somebody toucha my spaghet!



ALEX GOLDMAN: So him doing this actually took this meme that was, I think, kind of niche—


ALEX GOLDMAN: And made it massive. Because this video has seven million views.

PJ: So part of the reason that somebody touched my spaghet is a big deal is because a Youtuber who was angry because he got in trouble for criticizing another Youtuber who was ashamed because he’d filmed a corpse and gotten yelled at for it—

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)

PJ: —because that clip from like a 1920s Disney movie happened to float into that person’s brain on that day, that’s why we know this?


PJ: Hmm.

ALEX BLUMBERG: That’s wild.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And I would say the last beat of this story is, since no one can ever be happy about anything, the guy who originally posted the “Somebody toucha my spaghet” tweet responded to his own tweet afterwards saying, “to pewdiepie who hijacked my meme that isn’t even funny–”

PJ: (laughs) It’s true!


ALEX GOLDMAN: (reading) “you are a little bitch, and I have no respect for you, and I wish I could have forgotten about you years ago like everyone else did.”


PJ: He got the tiniest little platform, and he stood on it, and he took his shot.

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: We are at Yes Yes Yes.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Alright, Alex, I know that this one is- is on a pretty epic scale, but can you explain to us this tweet?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yes, I believe I can. Here we go. This single tweet is sort of like an encyclopedia of a bunch of different memes that are going around the internet, and has like put them into this four box quadrant.

PJ: Yeah, it’s sort of like if we disappear tomorrow, the civilization that finds us is going to find this tweet like etched onto this stone wall by a bloody hand.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And every panel is this tweet tells its own long, long story. There’s the story of the Tide pods, (laughs) which is “famine,” because people love to pretend to eat them and people loving to pretend to do something on the internet leads to hijinks and consequences.

There is the story of the next panel, the echidna, which is “war,” which involves… It involves Ugandan filmmaker and the way his work has been employed in online gaming platforms.  

ALEX BLUMBERG: Uh, then there’s the story of Logan Paul, Youtube star extraordinaire, who took it too far when he filmed a dead body in a forest in Japan. And that’s “death.”

And then, final quadrant, “pestilence,” is, um, I’m not exactly sure what that has to do with pestilence, actually. But it’s basically… I think the user doesn’t know what pestilence is. I think that is… Yes. So anyway, but I think they think it means poverty. Anyway, it’s like the three bears from this 1930s clip that has gone viral because of, um, a disgraced Youtuber trying to sort of like get back at the other gra- disgraced Youtuber from the previous quadrant.



PJ: Spaghet.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Somebody toucha my spaghet!

PJ: Ok, I think, I think we’re at Yes Yes Yes.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I feel like- I- I feel like we’ll always be brothers after this one.

ALL: (laugh)

ALEX BLUMBERG: Anything you need, you come to me.

PJ: (laughs)



PJ: Reply All is hosted by me, PJ Vogt, and Alex Goldman. Our show is produced by Sruthi Pinnamaneni, Phia Bennin, Damiano Marchetti, and Kaitlin Roberts. More production help this week from Khrista Rypl. Our editor is Tim Howard. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Our intern is Devon Guinn. This is our last week with our outgoing intern, Anna Foley. Anna is a genius, we’ve been very lucky to get to work with her. Hire her. Anna Foley. Special thanks this week to Taylor Lorenz. We were mixed by Rick Kwan. Our theme song is by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Matt Leiber is an unseasonably warm day. You can visit our website at, and you can find more episodes of the show on Spotify, or Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen. Thanks for listening, we’ll see you next week.

#113 Reply All’s Year End Extravaganza

Our finale for the year! We solve some unsolved mysteries, call up some of our favorite people, and answer questions about stories listeners are still wondering about. Plus many weird surprises. Episodes Referenced #82 Hello? #102 Long Distance #104 The Case of the Phantom Caller #84 Past, Present, Future 2 #109 Is Facebook Spying on…

December 21, 2017
View show transcript

PJ VOGT: Alex Goldman.


PJ: Phia Bennin.

PHIA BENNIN: PJ Vogt and Alex Goldman.

PJ and ALEX: (laughs)

PHIA: So, you guys remember the “Hello” episode that we did last year –

PJ: Mmhmm.

ALEX: Yeah.

PHIA: And, in it, you guys took calls for 48 hours. You experienced a lot of misery, and then at one point this woman named Laura called and she just like, made everything lovely by playing a lot of musical instruments for you and giving like you a breather?

PJ: Yes.

ALEX: It was great.

PHIA: So the way we’re going to start today’s episode. I have her phone number. We’re going to give her a call.

PJ: Cool

ALEX: Alright.


LAURA: Hello?
PJ: Hi, Laura?
ALEX: It’s PJ and Alex.
LAURA: Hi! Hi guys!
ALEX: How’ve you been?
LAURA: Good! This is so, (laughing) this is like so strange that you guys are calling me. I’m at Warner Brothers today. We’re recording for a movie called Game Night.
PJ: Really?
LAURA: Hold on, everyone say hi.
OTHERS: (faintly) Hey.
ALEX: Who–who is?
LAURA: Those are famous musicians.
ALEX: (laughs)
LAURA: (laughs) I’m at lunch, right now, so–
PJ: That’s wild.
ALEX: So, uh, this is the episode where we catch up with people who we’ve talked with over the past year or so, and we were wondering if you could play us some tunes on the french horn.
LAURA: Ok, uh. I have to go- let me- let me go into the studio. (whispering) This is uh, I have to be very quiet. Let’s see who’s in here.
ALEX: How are you going to play the french horn if you’re going to be very quiet, if you have to be very quiet?
LAURA: No, they’re gonna just think I’m like warming up or something.
ALEX: Ohhhh.
LAURA: (whispering) Cause, there’s people, just like–. We’re on our break, so they’re just checking their phones. Hold on, I’m walking. There’s not very many people in here. And I have like, salad in my teeth. Hold on, I’m going to put you on speakerphone in the studio, ok?
PJ: Ok.
LAURA: Ok, I’m just going to play my french horn.
ALEX: Alright, jam out.
[LAURA plays]
LAURA: Hey Gary.
GARY: Yeah?
LAURA: Can you oompa over there? This is for my friends.
ALEX: What is an oompa?
LAURA: You’ll see. ALEX: (laughs)
[GARY and LAURA play delightful music]
PJ: Ah, oompa! God, that makes me so happy.
LAURA: There’s–(laughs). This is very embarrassing.
GARY: (laughs) Ok.
PJ: Do you still remember the melody for the Reply All song?
LAURA: I sure do.
PJ: How does that one go?
LAURA: Ok, let’s see.
PJ: Oh yeah.

[MUSIC: Laura’s Reply All jingle]

PJ: From Gimlet, this is Reply All. I’m PJ Vogt.

ALEX: And I’m Alex Goldman.

PHIA: And I’m Phia Bennin.

PJ: This is our last episode of the year. And so, we’re going to solve some of our unsolved mysteries, we’re gonna call up some of our favorite people we got to talk to, update some episodes people still had some questions about. We’re going to do a bunch of other weird stuff, and then we’re going to take this year, stuff it into a garbage can, and set it on fire!

PHIA: Perfect.

PJ: Um, what are we doing first?

PHIA: Ok first up! Episodes 102 and 103, Long Distance


PJ: Alex?

ALEX: Remember when I–I went to India?

PJ: Yes.

ALEX: (laughs) That was such a weird intro.

PJ: Yes.


PJ: Somebody tried to scam you.

ALEX: And I tried to become their friend.

PJ: And that went on for, like, a year.


PJ: And they said in a polite and off handed way, “Hey if you’re ever in India if you’re free to hang out.” And then you took him literally and went there to try to understand like basically what happens inside a scam call center. Like, the businesses that call Americans and pretend to be Apple computer when really they’re scammers.

ALEX: Right.

PJ: And the company’s called Accostings.

ALEX: Accostings Infotech Private Limited.

PJ: God, just a great series of words. … So what’s the news? What’s happened?

ALEX: So the first thing that happened after the first episode came out is that many of their websites shut down.

PJ: Like, they were hiding.

ALEX: Yes. But, what I will say is that people say they are still getting calls like the one that I received. Your iCloud’s been compromised, it’s a Robocall, etc. etc.

PJ: Which doesn’t necessarily mean that Accostings is doing it.

ALEX: Right.

PJ: But you didn’t–your reporting didn’t–not only did it not like destroy the ecosystem, like obviously, but like people are still doing this.

ALEX: Yes, I definitely did not destroy the ecosystem. But, I was curious in the five months since I reported this story, if anything had changed specifically at Accostings. So I decided to call Kamal, who was like the manager of Accostings, and the person I had most of my interaction with.

PJ: The guy who you had a telephone friendship–ehhh–relationship with.

ALEX: Telephone relationship.

PJ: Yeah.  

ALEX: And to my surprise, I called his cellphone, and he picked up!

PJ: Which is surprising, because your guy’s relationship ended in a bad place.

ALEX: It didn’t end in a great place.

PJ: And what did he say?

ALEX: I said “Hey Kamal, it’s Alex!” And he was like “What can I do for you?”

PJ: Huh.

ALEX: And I said, “We’re doing our end of year episode, where we update our stories.”

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX: What’s going on with the company, how ya doing? And he said “I don’t want to participate, thank you.” And he hung up.

PJ: I’m surprised it got that far, honestly.

ALEX: I am too! I can’t believe he picked up. So the next thing I did was say “I wonder if I, me saying the name of their company and their address on the radio 15,00 times made it enough for them to move?”

PJ: Like are they still above, because they were above Headphones, the headphone bar.

ALEX: Mmhmm.

PJ: So are they still there?

ALEX: So I called Headphones.

PJ: And?

ALEX: And I said, “Hey, is there like a tech support company above you guys?” And the guy who was working there told me it was his first week. And that they had had a party there the night before.

PJ: The Accostings crew?

ALEX: Yeah. I mean, it seems that way. It was the call center above the bar.

PJ: Wow. Did they burn an effigy of you?

ALEX: (laughs) I have no idea.

PJ: So they’re still–everything–the world spins.

ALEX: The world spins. The only other thing I have to report is shortly before the first episode came out, I went to Kamal and said, “Hey Kamal. I just want you to know, this is what’s going to be in the episode. If you have any complaint about the way that I’m describing this, now is your chance, on the record, to clear it up.”

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX: And he wouldn’t answer any of my questions, but one of the things he took exception to was me saying that I figured this all out because of the WhoIs records on the websites. He was like “Anybody can put anything they want in the WhoIs records. It doesn’t make a difference.”

PJ: What do you think it meant that that was the thing he took objection to?

ALEX: I think he was just trying to give himself plausible deniability. He’s like “Yeah, someone put a bunch of websites up in the name Kamal Verma.”

PJ: But you don’t know it was me.

ALEX: But you don’t know it was me. And then, right after the first episode came out, one of the many websites in the constellation of websites associated with Accostings, a place called AMPC, changed the registration on the site so that the registration name was Alex Goldman.

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX: And they put my phone number on there.

PJ: Ah! (laughs) Wow. I appreciate their cheekiness.


PHIA: Next up, episode 104, The Case of the Phantom Caller.


PJ: You remember this one, Alex?

ALEX: The one where you solved what seemed like an impossible mystery.

PJ: Yes.

ALEX: I was really impressed with you.

PJ: Thanks Alex.

ALEX: Sounded patronizing — meant it sincerely.

PJ: Yeah, I was trying to figure it out. That was like, replaying in my head. Um, so one of the thoughts that I–has like been lingering in my head since we broadcast that was how, basically like whoever is behind those calls, like, they’re scam is they call people on the phone and they play them audio and they try to make it so the audio is captivating in a way where the person keeps listening.

ALEX: Right.

PJ: Anyway, so I was thinking about these calls, and I was thinking about how the person who is making them, or persons, their job is actually kind of similar to our job.

ALEX: Are you putting out a call to hire them?

PJ: (laughs) No, I’m not putting out a call to hire them. So I had a different idea, actually.

ALEX: Mmm. Disappointing.

PJ: Uh, I wanted to see if you and I could come up with better spooky calls because we’re professionals, and like, our job is to make audio interesting. So I was thinking like, “Ok, we’re going to have a competition. Both of us gets to go home tonight and try to make the best spooky call that we can. First thing tomorrow morning, we’ll come in and we’ll call people we know and see which one, which one of these spooky calls keeps people on the line for longest.”

ALEX: (clears throat)

PJ: How do you feel about that?

ALEX: And are–we’re competing?

PJ: Yes.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: You worried?

ALEX: Yes.

PJ: Really?

ALEX: Yeah!

PJ: Why?

ALEX: I’m worried because so much of what we do is implicitly framed as competition, to explicitly frame it as competition, is just going to be you being like, “Well, I won, I won.” And I’m already assuming that I’ve lost.

PJ: Wow! Well, I mean I assume that you’re going to lose too, but I didn’t think you would.

ALEX: (laughs) Who are we going to call?

PJ: Phia, have you worked this out?

PHIA: Yes. I know who we’re going to call, but I’m going to tell you guys when you come back tomorrow.

PJ: Ok.

ALEX: This is such a weird idea.

PJ: Do you have an idea of what feeling you’re going to try to give the person you’re calling?

ALEX: I mean, I can’t think of anything other than deeply unsettling. I want to give someone a deeply unsettling feeling.

PJ: You do it for me all the time.

So, tomorrow morning, we’ll make some phone calls.

ALEX: Sounds good.

PJ: Ok.


ALEX: (clears throat) Hi, PJ.

PJ: Ok, so.

ALEX: It’s sensational to see you.

PJ: It’s sensational to see you as well. We’ve had time to build our own spooky calls. I’m very curious what comes from the mind of Alex Goldman.

ALEX: (laughs) Well. Um, I–I don’t know how good I feel about this.

PJ: You feel good about it!

ALEX: Here’s, here’s what happened–you told me on Monday night. You said, ok, come back tomorrow with a spooky call! So I woke up at 5 in the morning, I dragged a bunch of extension cords into my attic, and–

PJ: Extension cords?

ALEX: Because I needed to plug a bunch of things in.

PJ: Oh, this is already weird.

ALEX: And, I tried to make a spooky call. I took some lessons from the, the episode, and hopefully I incorporated them in a way that–

PJ: And what was your theory about, in the episode–what, what did you feel like the spooky caller was doing right that you wanted to emulate?


PJ: Tell me about your work. (laughs)

ALEX: I wanted to feel like it, there might be a thread to follow here. But um, it’s unclear what it is.

PJ: Right. Like, tell a little bit of the story. Ok.

ALEX: Alright, here we go.

PJ: Ok.

[Alex’s spooky call plays]

PJ: Oh, it’s so weird. And that’s Harvey?

ALEX: Yeah.

PJ: Wow.

ALEX: I’m trying to help.

PJ: Oh this gives me the stomach ache feeling.

ALEX: Just listen to me for a second, I’m trying to help.

PJ: It sounds like all the years of a divorce happening at the same time. Like time slip. What are the sounds?

ALEX: (laughs)

HARVEY: [talking indistinctly]

ALEX: You want to wait?


ALEX: It’s going to take a long time.

PJ: (laughs) Oh god, I hate this so much. It’s stressing me out so bad.

ALEX: I know, I’m just trying–I’m trying to talk to you. I’m trying to talk to you about this. It’s not a big deal.

PJ: Ok. Enough! Enough!

ALEX: It’s going to be a long time. You want to wait a long time?

PJ: No more. Please stop playing it. (laughs). I listened, too. Like, even knowing that it was a trap, I fell into it.

ALEX: My thought was like a half-heard conversation between a father and son, would be like, tantalizing kind of. And then I also pretended to be like, having half of a phone conversation over it.

PJ: Wow–you’re–which is like, a fighty conversation?

ALEX: Which is like a fighty, unpleasant conversation.

PJ: And then what are all the of the weird swirly sounds?

ALEX: Uh, there’s a little bit of droney synthesizer in there. Um, and then the sort of like, echoey banging as I turn the reverb all the way up on my amplifier and just grabbed it and dropped it on the floor.

PJ: Alex, you’re good at making sound art.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: Ok, do you want to hear mine?

ALEX: Yes.

PJ: Ok. I’m very impressed with yours. This is fun. This feels like arts and crafts. For creeps.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: Ok. You ready?

ALEX: Yes.

MALE VOICE: Would you hold on just a minute please?
MALE VOICE 2: Yeah, is Lefty there?
MALE VOICE 3: He’s across the street, Lefty. There’s a lion in the truck. (laughs)
MALE VOICE 2: (laughs) He’s got the lion in the truck?
MALE VOICE 3: They gotta get rid of the lion.
MALE VOICE 2: He wanted–you know what he wanted to do? He’s crazy. He said, uh–

ALEX: What is this?

PJ: Mobster wire taps.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: It’s a conversation about a mobster getting their lion confiscated from them.

MALE VOICE 2: A lion, can you imagine that?
[Phantom screeching noise]
MALE VOICE 3: There’s no question about it.

ALEX: What was that?

PJ: That’s whale song.

ALEX: (laughs)

MALE VOICE 2: Marone–

ALEX: Marone.

LYNDON JOHNSON: Now, another thing, the crotch, down where your nuts hang is always a little too tight. So, when you make ’em up, giving me an inch so that I can let out there.

ALEX: What is this?

PJ: It’s Lyndon Johnson ordering trousers.

LYNDON JOHNSON: These are almost, these are the best that I’ve had.

ALEX: How do you get that?

PJ: It just exists.

LYNDON JOHNSON: Let’s see if you can’t leave me about it–an inch from where the zipper (burps) ends, right, right under, back to my bunghole. So I can let it out there if I need to.

ALEX: What the fuck?

PJ: It’s just a guy with a bunghole who wants his pants to fit.

LYNDON JOHNSON: And if you get those to me, I will sure be grateful.

ALEX: I don’t like Lyndon Johnson because of this!

PJ: (laughs)

MALE VOICE: Yeah, Donny.

PJ: Ok.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: How long is yours total?

ALEX: Five minutes, I think.

PJ: Mine is 11, but that’s really optimistic.


PHIA: Ok, so, now we are going to pit your calls against each other. It is time for spooky caller faceoff. I am going to call the parents of people on the Reply All team, they have no idea we’re calling, and we’ll see who stays on the phone the longest. Sound good?

ALEX: Yes.

PHIA: First up, PJ we’re going to try your recording on Alex’s Mom.

PJ: Ok. How long do you think your mom will stay on?

ALEX: 45 seconds.

PJ: That’s a lot.

ALEX’S MOM: Hello? [Spooky call plays] Hello?!

ALEX: (laughs) Maybe we overestimated our ability to be riveting.

PHIA: Now, Alex, you’re calling Tim’s dad.

TIM’S DAD: Hello? Hello?!
[Spooky call plays]

PHIA: And now, my mom.

PHIA’S MOM: Hello?
[Alex’s spooky call plays]

PJ: What a listener cannot see is that whole time that was happening you were fist-pumping in the air?

ALEX: (laughs) That was 30 seconds!

PJ: Jesus.

PHIA: Alright, it’s time for our last call. PJ, your time to beat is 30 seconds.

PJ: Ok.

PHIA: So for this one, we’re calling Alex’s dad.

PJ: Got it.

[Phone rings]

ALEX’S DAD: Hello? [pauses] Hold on for what? [who?]
[Hangs up]

PJ/ALEX: (laughs)

ALEX: Alright, I think you made it about six seconds, but he actually responded to it.

PJ: Oh, god.

ALEX: That felt really good.

PHIA: Alright, ok. So–clocking in at 30 seconds, tricking my mom, and winning this: Alex Goldman.

ALEX: (singing) I’m the king of creepiness, I’m the king of creepiness. Got a real spookiness, I’m the king of creepiness.

PJ: I hate to give it to you, but I do think you’re the king of creepiness.

ALEX: (singing) I’m a little creepy boy creeping around.

PJ: Nice job.


PHIA: Next episode is Episode 84. And, I think one of my favorite people that we talked to for this episode was Susan.

PJ: I remember Susan.


PJ: Susan called us, it was last “Past, Present, Future.” She was the best.

PHIA: So a year ago.

PJ: A year ago. And it was that, we were talking about like things people were looking forward to in the next year I think.

PHIA: Mhm.

PJ: And she called in because a bunch of her friends had started a soap company.

PHIA: Well she called in ’cause she’d had like, just a miserable year.

PJ: Oh yeah!

PHIA: She’d had like the toughest year ever. She’d like gotten a divorce, she had ended up having to move into this freezing cold airstream trailer. And so, it was just sort of like, good riddance to 2016. And then the thing she was looking forward to, yeah, was that like she had this group of friends that had started a soap company. It was, like, going kind of rocky, and she was worried about them, but she really wanted it to work out.

PJ: They were, they were Muslim. It was like right after Trump was elected.

PHIA: Mhm.

PJ: She felt like worried for them, basically.

PHIA: Yeah.

PJ: I think the soap company is ok because I know Alex keeps ordering soap from them.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: Um, but I like actually over the past year I keep wondering about her, I keep wondering how she’s doing now.  

PHIA: So, do you want to give Susan a call?

PJ: Yeah, let’s do it.

SUSAN: Hello?
ALEX: Hey Susan, it’s Alex and PJ!
PJ: How’s it going?
SUSAN: Hello!
ALEX: How are you?
SUSAN: (indistinct) I’m okay. How are you?
ALEX: I’m good. It’s nice to hear your voice. What’ve you been up to for the past year?
SUSAN: Oh gosh. Oh dear.
ALEX/PJ: (laughs)
SUSAN: Well I should warn you that as soon as I get on the phone my dog makes noises, so you might hear my dog. I got a dog! There’s something.
PJ: That sounds pretty good.
ALEX: It seemed like 2016 wasn’t the best year for you. I’m wondering if you’re … in a better place.
SUSAN: (sighs) Well I’m getting to a better place. I’m quite literally in the same place. Uh, I’m still in this Airstream trailer, believe it or not.
PJ: Really?
SUSAN: Yes, well. I did at least manage to buy the Airstream outright. I own my own home! (laughs)
PJ: (laughs)
ALEX: Good work. So last year we were, we asked you what you had to look forward to in 2017 and now I’m interested to know what you’re looking forward to in 2018.
SUSAN: The one thing that I’m looking forward to is I’ve decided to very actively embrace winter in Indiana. You know–
PJ: What does that look like?
SUSAN: Well, what it means is, okay so the sky is the color of a blank sheet of paper and it makes me want to die inside, —
PJ: (laughs)
SUSAN: — fine. But it also means that owls are much easier to spot. So I’ve been getting into owls in a big way. Um, I go out in the woods just about every day and there’s one owl in particular who I see almost everyday in her tree and I named her Beatrice and I visit her, but not too close. But I’ve been collecting owl pellets. I bet you don’t know what that is.
PJ: No I don’t
SUSAN: Well, they can’t digest the fur and the bone of these little animals that they eat and they cough up these compact, tidy little, perfect pellets and they’re impossible to find. It’s like finding the Hope Diamond if you find one. I found one the other day, I was so excited. And now the three guys are like, “Are you a wit–a witch?”
PJ and ALEX: (laugh)
SUSAN: Or, “What’re you up to? Why do you need these bones?” But then, at the same time, they also just said, “Hey, we, we found you a really cheap used toaster oven so you can sanitize your owl pellets.” So it’s like they’re teasing me but then they’re also supporting my weird habit now too, which is very sweet.


SUSAN: (whispering) Okay. I’m here at my favorite woods. We have tons of parks and stuff and this one is a, kind of a well-kept secret. So let’s see: I have my, my binoculars, and my stick, and a knife and some mace ’cause you never know. So anyway I’m gonna look for Beatrice, my little owl friend.
God, I don’t know how they stay warm out here, it’s colder than a witch’s tit. Okay we’re coming up on Beatrice’s tree and the owl-iest part of the woods. That’s her tree … Wow not only is Beatrice home, she’s looking straight at me with her eyes all the way open like, “Fucker, what’re you doin’? Get outta here.” (laughs) Yes ma’am.
[Owl sound]
Holy shit!


[MUSIC – Laura Whistling]

PHIA: Next up, Episode 109, “Is Facebook Spying on You?

PJ: Ok, so Alex.

ALEX: Yes.

PJ: So in 109, you were trying to figure out if Facebook was listening in on people using the microphones on their phones so they could show them ads. And we learned two things: One, they’re probably not doing that. Two, it’s basically impossible to convince anybody who believes that Facebook is doing that, that it’s not the case. We opened up the phone lines, and we found out that either people are just not convincible or at least definitely they are not convincible by you.

ALEX: Definitely not by me!

PJ: You–it was–it was something to behold.

ALEX: It felt terrible.

PJ: It was–not to watch. But, like the most sort of, the like, the-the-the like, real, the part where it really devolved was this woman Julia called and her thing was like, “They’re listening in on me, not to give me ads but to like suggest different friends to me.” And that, like, the idea that she was asking a slightly different question for some reason like, destroyed you. Um, I have tape of that.

ALEX: That’s true.

PHIA: (laughs)

JULIA: –And it was both of us that got the recommended follow, and you don’t get the recommended follows that often. So, it’s definitely listening to me.
ALEX: PJ’s- PJ is smirking at me because he thinks that I can’t answer this.
PJ: No, I’m just smiling because your face is covered in flop sweat.
ALEX: And you’re absolutely right that I can’t answer this one.
PJ: (laughs)
JULIA: (laughs)
ALEX: Because ad targeting and the “people you may know” data sets are totally separate. I don’t- I haven’t been researching this. I have no idea. I have–I can’t answer this one.
JULIA: I do it tells you though that the microphone is definitely listening.
ALEX: Uh- I-
ALEX: PJ can’t- PJ can’t keep it together. He’s losing his mind. He thinks this is so funny.
PJ: (laughing) I just think it’s funny because Alex had a lot of confidence (laughing harder, barely audible) he would have all the answers, and would be able to explain it to people.

ALEX: That feels bad to listen back to.

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX: Why did you say it like you’re enjoying listening back to it?

PJ: No! It felt bad.

ALEX: Um, but, since that episode has aired, I have learned more about how Facebook recommends friends to people, in the way that it recommended them to Julia, and I feel like I can confidently call her back and explain what is going on in this situation.

PJ: Ok! Let’s call her.

JULIA: Hello?
ALEX: Hey Julia, it’s Alex and PJ.
PJ: We’re back.
ALEX: Julia, last time you called, things didn’t go great as far as me convincing you. But I’m back, and I’m armed with more information, and I think I can convince you that Facebook is not listening to you.
JULIA: Ok. Well I had a conversation after the episode aired, and I also have an alternate non-microphone theory but I would, I would like to know why you think this happened to me.
PJ: Wait, I’m curious about this other theory. So, what is it?
JULIA: So this is the theory: Both me and my friend had either Instagram or Facebook open, and had location services turned on for at least one of them. And Facebook could see that we were both in the same place, and like, were therefore actually very good friends. And would have way more things in common, then sort of like your average two users who may be Facebook friends that are never physically in the same place.
PJ: Because basically they would’ve been able to say, “Okay we know you’re friends–we know you’re close friends–and we know like that you’re in a friendship circle that includes all these other people who are friends with this guy that you’re not friends with so now we’re gonna suggest him to you.”
JULIA: Yeah.
PJ: That seems credible to me.
ALEX: Yeah, that does seem credible.
JULIA: Yeah. Seems like that could be it, but like, that still sucks.
PJ: Oh, it totally still sucks.
ALEX: Well I have another idea about how Facebook would know to recommend this guy to you. And it comes from Kashmir Hill who is a reporter at Gizmodo.
JULIA: Oh I read the shadow profile story.
ALEX: Oh ok.
JULIA: Which also contributed to this theory a little bit but, but tell me more.
PJ: Alex, does the person we’re talking to know less than you do about this or the same amount or more?
JULIA: (laughing)
ALEX: I would say Julia knows about as much.
ALL: (laugh)
JULIA: But yeah, sorry. So sorry. Alex, tell me, tell me more. What do you think?
ALEX: Oh, this is so humiliating. (laughing)
PJ: (laughs)
ALEX: But PJ doesn’t know.
PJ: Uh huh…
ALEX: So PJ–PJ will learn something.
PJ: Ok.
ALEX: So, in addition to knowing a ton about, um, about you based on your Facebook profiles, Facebook also has a set of information that they use to target your friends to you that Kashmir calls a “shadow profile.”
PJ: And like, as the only person in this conversation, apparently, that doesn’t know what a shadow profile is: What’s a shadow profile?
ALEX: Basically what it is, is. Ok, so you set your– you set Facebook up on your phone or computer, and it says like, “Hey, we want to find friends for you. Why don’t we go through your contact list and we’ll find friends for you?”
PJ: Uh huh.
ALEX: It will take all of that information.
PJ: Like it basically just hoovers up your phone book.
ALEX: But it keeps that information, and anytime someone else adds their, their phone book, their address book to Facebook, and there’s a new piece of information, it adds that new piece of information to its database.
PJ: So, like, even if I didn’t give Facebook my home address, if you have my home address and it’s in your phone book, and you synced your contacts, they now know my home address.
ALEX: Exactly.
PJ: Got it.
ALEX: The fact that Facebook knows, Facebook figures out the connections based on who has who in its address book, there might be like a third person who has this guy and both Julia and her friend in the address book, and it’s like “Oh well, there’s only like one degree of separation between these two people and this guy, let’s give this person to them as a ‘Person they might know.'”
AG: So Julia, was there a particular reason that you were talking about him?
JULIA: Not really, no. It was like, I think her friend had started dating one of his friends, and she was like, “Oh, like, I ran into him the other night, it was so weird.” And I was like, “I haven’t seen him in 10 years. That’s so crazy.”
PJ: But her friend is dating one of his friends would be a thing that maybe Facebook would know about. Would be like shadow profile information.
JULIA and ALEX: Yes.
JULIA: True, true.
ALEX: Yes.
PJ: Like, they’re sort of like, they can tell that his social circle is inching a little bit closer to yours, and so they’re like “Hey, what about this guy? You want to be friends with him? Or you wanna follow him on Instagram?”
JULIA: Very true.
PJ: It sounds like, perhaps, like you have convinced yourself that Facebook is not spying on you using its microphone.
JULIA: Yeah, well, I will say this: I still think it is possible.
ALEX: But, on a scale of 1-10, like, how likely do you think that it is?
JULIA: I would maybe say I’m at a 3. I think it is still a possibility. But I do think there are other things Facebook knows and like is, is listening in on while not necessarily actually listening in on.
PJ: And would you say, I mean so you, you felt 1000 percent before and now you feel like a 3 out of 10. Was, was Alex pretty helpful as far as–
ALEX and JULIA: (laughing)
PJ: — getting you from one to the other?
JULIA: Um, yes. Sure.
ALEX: Well look, someone convinced someone. I’m gonna just go ahead and chalk that up as a victory.


PJ: So, obviously one of the people that we wanted to check in with, get an update from, is Breakmaster Cylinder, the mysterious person who does a lot of the music, including the theme song for our show. Even though they are currently trapped in space.

ALEX: With no internet!

PJ: With no internet. We asked them for an update. This is what we got.

Breakmaster Cylinder: Hi Reply All. 2017’s been wildly hailed as a sad sack of crap so I’ve travelled back to 1902 where the future is looking bright. For white men. And I hear next year we’ll all be getting as movie theater. And Scarlet Fever. Great scott.
[Ragtime piano plays with mob crowd sounds]
The whole town is gathered here to kill me so I’m on my way.
I’m headed to New York where I’m going to bury this tape right where the Gimlet building sits in 2017. I hope you find it.

PHIA: Now it’s time for the lightning round.

PJ: Are you sure?

PHIA: I’m completely sure.

PJ: Ok.

PHIA: Are you guys ready?

ALEX: Yeah.

PJ: Uhhhhhhhh yes.

ALEX: Yeah!

PHIA: Ok, so I’m going to put a minute on the clock. You guys are going to take turns providing updates. It’s who can–who has more updates within a minute.

ALEX: Ok do you want to flip a coin to see who goes first?

PJ: Yeah, that seems right. Phia do you approve of that?

PHIA: Yeah, I’m ok with that. What kind of coin do you have?

ALEX: I have a quarter. Call it in the air.

PJ: Heads.

ALEX: Tails. So who goes first?

PJ: You get to decide.

ALEX: (sighs) I’m going to say you go first.

PJ: Ok, cool.

PHIA: I’ve got a minute on the clock. On your mark, get set–PJ, go!


PJ: (talking quickly) Ok, you remember that whole story about how scientists are trying to figure out how to contact aliens?

ALEX: Yes.

PJ: They have a new theory which is that the aliens may be out there but hibernating.

ALEX: Huh. You know the grand tapestry of Pepe where uh, the alt-right took over this frog this cute frog —

PJ: Yup. Yup. Yup.

ALEX: — cartoon character? Matt Furie, the creator of Pepe, has sent cease and desists to a bunch of places who are using it including the Donald subreddit and he actually filed a lawsuit against the guy who wrote an Islamophobic children’s book starring Pepe. As part of the settlement, the guy had to donate all of his profits to the Council on Islamic-American relations. Go ahead.

PJ: Uh, ok. The phantom caller switched to silent calls for a while but no one really knows what’s going on post that story.

ALEX: Brinna, from the Black Hole NJ episode who got her watch taken by scammers, some benevolent person got her a new Apple watch.

PJ: Um, Enes Kanter, the basketball player who got sort of owned on Twitter, he lost his check mark but was then given it back and he doesn’t know why.

ALEX: The guy who went into Comet Ping Pong, the Pizzagate pizza place with a gun, got sentenced to four years in jail.

PJ: Seems reasonable. Temporary protected status visas, the thing that the guy had in Skiptracer, Trump has shut that down for people from Haiti and Nicaragua and this month he’s supposed to announce whether or not he’s going to shut it down for people from El Salvador.

ALEX: Longmont Potion Castle came out with three new albums this year.

PJ: Uhhhh, the dog rates–the dog rating account, there’s now a Brent and Brant character in the new Sims expansion who I think are married to each other.

ALEX: So you know how Facebook follows you everywhere you go around the internet?

PJ: Yes, yes.

ALEX: Safari recently came up with an update that allows you to block that right in the browser and you never have to worry about it again.

PJ: Uhhhhhh do you have any more? I have —

ALEX: No I’m done.

PJ: Oh, Flash the tortoise! Is doing fine still.

ALEX: (laughs)

PHIA: Time!

PJ: I think I beat him every single way you could count, actually.

PHIA: He talks slower than you.

ALEX: (heavy breathing)

PJ: That doesn’t help you win. Alex, it’s ok. Second place is like the first loser.

ALEX: It actually doesn’t have to be a competition. It could just be a fun thing where we shout stuff at each other as fast as we can and I just happen to shout it slower because I talk slow!

PJ: So it would be a–a together race?

ALEX: Yeah, exactly–

PJ: It’s like going for a jog?

ALEX: — it would be, think of it as a potato sack race, where we’re both in the potato sack and we’re bouncing around together.

PJ: Have you ever been in a potato sack race? (laughs)

ALEX: But it doesn’t have to–it could be fun. It could be a thing like where we learn to work together and we’re both better as a result —

PJ: Thank god we live in this potato sack together.

ALEX: –we win the race.

PJ: And also, then against who because we’re all–?

ALEX: A potato sack race is not people who live in a potato sack.

PJ: You said our whole working experience could be like a potato sack race. And you also said it could be non-competitive, like a potato sack race. Which to me makes me think you think when two people love each other, they live in a potato sack.

ALEX: (laughs)

PJ: Your metaphor for collaborating is a potato sack race.

ALEX: Right, which is a thing where people are uncomfortably thrown into a hot sack–

PJ: And they fall over.

ALEX: –and they do their best to work together to win the race.

PHIA: Why is it hot? (laughing) Why is the potato sack hot?

ALEX: I just think of it as like, a thing that you do on a hot day, like a field day. I feel like I’m being ganged up on.

PJ: I feel like you’re going to confess to a murder in like three seconds, you’re so losing it.

ALEX: I didn’t want to, ok.

PJ/PHIA: (laughing)

ALEX: But they wouldn’t–he wouldn’t help me win the race–

PJ: He wouldn’t come in your potato sack?

ALEX: — I kept falling over and he wouldn’t cooperate.

[MUSIC: Laura Continued]

PHIA: Next up: Episode 88. Second Language.

PJ: Ok so Second Language was about this guy Eric Valor. Eric has pretty advanced ALS, he communicates through a computer that tracks his eye movements–but he’s able to get a lot done–including, like, he actually helps with ALS research. He sent us this recording about what he’s up to.

ERIC VALOR: Hi. Sorry for the delay. The only real update worth mentioning is that after some unavoidable delays, my latest drug research project is coming to a head. The next month is the critical one where we find out if my theory is sound. I am hoping Santa brings me 24 wiggling mouse noses. So far they appear to be in good shape, but the disease is a little bit like falling off a cliff–when they go, they go fast. Needless to say, I would be biting my fingernails if my arms and hands worked.

Eric Valor, he also told us he now has a podcast which you can find on his website, that’s V-A-L-O-R.

[MUSIC: Matt Farley’s “The Future”]

PJ:  Ok so in last week’s episode we asked people to call in because we wanted to hear their predictions for the future. We are now going to take those calls. Are you ready?

ALEX: I am.

ALEX: Hello?
PJ: Hello?
ALEX: Who’s this?
CALEY: This is Callie Burke. From Florida
ALEX: Hey, Callie!
PJ: Where in Florida?
CALEY: So I’m currently at Kennedy Space Center on Merritt Island in Florida. About an hour east of Orlando.
PJ: Wait, you’re at the space center?
CALEY: Yes. I am your rocket scientist fan, or one of them
PJ: Oh, did we talk to you before?
CALEY: You have talked to me before, yes
PJ: How’s it going over there in rocket science?
CALEY: Things are going well.
ALEX: What have you got for us in 2018?
CALEY: Uh, I’m launching a rocket to Mars, so.
PJ: (laughs)
ALEX: What?!
PJ: Done. You win. No more calls. You’re launching a rocket to Mars?
PJ: So, say more.
CALEY: So the Insight mission is a Mars lander. It’s going to measure Mars-quakes, cause they have those. And it’s going to go down about —
PJ: Right, it’s not an earthquake.
ALEX: It’s not an earthquake. I was going to be like “Don’t they just call them Mars earthquakes?”
CALEY: (laughs) They call them Mars-quakes is what I’ve heard. I think that’s the technical terminology. I’m not a scientist. Like my job is to make sure that the spacecraft is dropped off at the right place and it can get itself to Mars from there.
PJ: And then how long does it take to get to Mars?
CALEY: So it’s going to land on November 26. No matter what day we launch, we’ll launch some time in May or beginning of June, and then we’ll arrive on November 26.
PJ: Cool.
ALEX: Good luck.
CALEY: Thank you.


AG: Hey this is Alex and PJ what is your prediction for 2018?
MAN: Well, I predict that I’m going to win the soap box derby, the Portland Adult Soap Box Derby. I’m going to make a secret car. I usually place about seventh or eighth place and this year I’m looking for number one.
PJ: Ok, first of all are you a little bit far away from the phone right now?
AG: He just hung up.
PJ: Wow. He had one message and he made it.
AG: I won’t be taking any questions, thank you. (laughs)
PJ: A lot of soap box derby listeners are going to be rattled.


PJ: Hello?
AG: Hello?
AG: Who is this?
MICHAEL: This is Michael Avery, is this PJ and um … wow, this is  —
AG: And, and who?
PJ: Nobody.
AG: PJ and who?
PJ: Hello Michael Avery you have great taste in hosts on this show.
MICHAEL: Sorry, I just woke up and I’ve been trying and I’m sorry I’m such a big fan of the show. Alex Goldman is a true hero too.
AG: Do you know how many emails a week I get that are like, ‘Dear PJ and Adam Goldberg, I would just like you to know that I think your show is fantastic, I listen to every episode and I know exactly who you are: PJ and Adam.’
MICHAEL: This is such a Goldman Gripes moment, I love it.
PJ: (laughs)


ALEX: Hello?
JOSH: Hello. Hey.
PJ and ALEX: Hey.
PJ: Who’s this?
JOSH: This is uh Josh. How you doin?
PJ and ALEX: Good
ALEX: How are you?
JOSH: Good I was just calling in–saw the post of Facebook and I was callin’ in talking about big things for next year.
ALEX: Yeah. Whatchat got?
PJ: What’s your big thing?
JOSH: So currently I’m finishing up a 20-year career in the Coast Guard.
PJ: Woah.
JOSH: And uh. Came in 10 days after high school. So this is all I really know. But uh, just last week I got an offer letter for another government job, uh, being an electronic technician hopefully for a 3-letter agency.
PJ: When you say a 3-letter agency…?
JOSH: Yep.


PJ: What were your exciting days on the job like?
JOSH: Oh shit. I have a–I was a boarding officer on a speedboat down in the Caribbean chasing down a 33 foot gofast full of drugs that we busted.
PJ: What?!
JOSH: That was when I was kid. I was like 21.
PJ: What’s a gofast?
JOSH: A gofast is a vessel used by, uh, uh–narcotics smugglers. And basically they’re custom built fiberglass boats with a lot of engines. And we had to shoot out it’s engines and everything and uh…
ALEX: Oh my god.
JOSH: They all jumped off the boat.
PJ: You were shooting out the engines and you were 21?
JOSH: The guy behind me was shooting out the engines. I was the boarding officer, he was the gunners mate that was on board. And we couldn’t stop the boat and they had jumped out of it so it wasn’t safe to go across so we had to shoot out the engines in order to shut it down.


PJ: Hello?
VOICEMAIL: — trying to reach is busy and cannot take your call. Please leave a message after the tone.
ALEX: Alright, go ahead and hang up.”PJ: Wait, I think there’s a person there.
PJ and ALEX: Hello?
PJ and ALEX: Hello?
MICHELLE: Oh hi! It just played a message.
PJ: I think we’re somehow on someone’s voicemail.
ALEX: Yeah, I guess this is all recording.
MICHELLE: Oh, ok. Hi someone’s voicemail!
PJ: Who is this?
MICHELLE: Uh, my name’s Michelle. Hello!
PJ: What’s gonna happen next year?
MICHELLE: Well, ok. So next year I’m going to be moving across the country to —
PJ: I think that’s the end of someone’s voicemail message.
MICHELLE: Oh, okay (laughs) um. Well then after my summer job ends–
VOICEMAIL: Thank you. Your voicemail has reached its maximum duration–
PJ: (laughs)
ALEX: What is happening?
ALL:: (laughing)
VOICEMAIL: To send your message, press 3 or hang up.
VOICEMAIL: To delete your current message and record a new one, press 1. To listen to your message, press 2.
PJ: (laughs) Oh, This is such a mess!
VOICEMAIL: To mark your message as urgent, press 6.
ALEX: I’m worried that if we do anything, it’s just going to hang up on you.
VOICEMAIL: … press the star key.
PJ: Well, no.
MICHELLE: It’s still going.
PJ: Try pressing six.
MICHELLE: Ok, I’m pressing six.
VOICEMAIL: Your message is now marked as urgent. To send your message, press 3 or hang up.
PJ: Alright, press 3. Press 3.
MICHELLE: Ok I’m doing it.
VOICEMAIL: To delete your message and record a new one, press 1.
VOICEMAIL: Your message has been sent. To access the voice portal —
PJ: Ok I think we have to kill the call and start a new call.
MICHELLE: Aw, bummer
PJ: I’m sorry. Well, what’s the summer job?
ALEX: Say it quick before-
MICHELLE: Uh, it’s working for a truck company out in Portland, and then after that I’m moving to France.
VOICEMAIL: … is not valid. Please try again.
PJ and ALEX and MICHELLE: (laugh)
PJ: Ok, good luck in France, bye!
ALEX: Bye!
MICHELLE: Thanks guys, bye!


AG: Hello?
MAN 2: Oh, hey. Ok. The line is working. Hi! (laughs)
AG: Hi, this is Alex and PJ, what is your prediction for 2018?
MAN 2: I am a researcher about sexual assault and how students, like college students, handle that.
PJ: Uh huh.
MAN 2: Before this year it felt … honestly, it felt like tackling an impossible problem. But this year we’re finally starting to see accusers that people have known about for decades get punished …
PJ: Yeah.
MAN 2: … and I think in 2018 we’re going to see a huge wave of scandals on college campuses revolving around the way administrations and institutions handle that. And specifically how they don’t handle it.


PAIGE: (fading in) …I got their mom into it too so I have it hidden in her room.
PJ: So ok, just to make sure I understand, I want a visual picture of this.
PAIGE: Yeah.
PJ: There, your device that you have, it broadcasts to their normal radio, it’s like, you basically have the world’s tiniest little pirate radio station. So they can tune their normal radio–right?
PAIGE: Yeah, it’s supposed to be used in cars that don’t have like, aux cords. And then I hid the radio in their house and just left it there, and currently it’s playing a loop alternating between static and home Christmas videos from the 1980s that I found on YouTube.
PJ: How, how old are you?
PAIGE: I’m 18.
ALEX: So is the thing that you’re looking forward to in 2018 just like, totally bewildering and frightening your friends?
PAIGE: Yeah. I mean–that’s one of the things. That’s one of the things I’m looking forward to. But the other thing that I was calling about to tell you guys is I’m actually planning on coming out as trans next week.
ALEX: Congratulations!
PAIGE: Um. Yeah. So that’s pretty exciting. I’m looking forward to that.


PJ: Thanks for everybody who took the time to call in, and dealt with our hold system. Whenever we open the lines we always end up feeling like the world is filled with way more nice and interesting people than maybe it feels like on the subway ride to work. So thanks.

That is our last episode of the year.

One last thing before we go, we got some sad news today, which is that Reggie Osse, who hosted Mogul here at Gimlet, as well as his own podcast, the Combat Jack show, he died this morning of colon cancer. He was 48. Reggie in real life was actually as great as Reggie in his work. He was extremely funny and extremely smart. And when you talked to him just like normal, outside the studio smalltalk, he had a kind of curiosity that most people are just not able to have about other people full time. We were really, really lucky to work alongside him, even just for a little bit. And we’ll miss him.

Ok, that’s it for this show, that’s it for this year. We’ll be back in January, thanks for hanging out.

Reply All is hosted by me, PJ Vogt, and Alex Goldman. Our show is produced by Sruthi Pinnamaneni, Phia Bennin, and Damiano Marchetti. Additional production help this week from Khrista Rypl and Anna Foley. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Our editor is Tim Howard.

Also next year, Tim is going to be working remotely from Berlin, which means if you’re a reporter in Europe who wants to collaborate, you should find him on Twitter. He’s @newtimhoward. That’s new, not nude. We were mixed by Kate Blinski. Our theme music is by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks this week to Andrew Pseudonym, Kashmir Hill, Mia Dahlgren, Matt Furie, Matt Farley, Kathleen Sloan, David Steele, Laura Brenes, and Adam Quinn. Matt Lieber is the day that everyone brings their extra baked goods to the office. You can visit our website at and you can find more episodes of our show on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Thanks for listening, we’ll see you next year.

#112 The Prophet

After Andrea is attacked by a stranger in Mexico City, she just wants to figure out who the guy was. Investigating this question drops her right into the middle of one of Mexico’s biggest conspiracies.

December 15, 2017
View show transcript

PJ VOGT: Hey, quick warning: this episode has descriptions of sexual assault and violence. If that’s not something you want to hear, you should skip it.


PJ: From Gimlet, this is Reply All. I’m PJ Vogt.

It always feels like kind of a cop out to me when people say the Internet sucks, the Internet’s bad. Because while I completely agree, it’s absurd that the same place we go for jokes and news is also the place where we have to wade through death threats, and racism, and like endless, endless bickering.

But it always feels kinda weird to blame it on the Internet. Like, that’s us. Those are the people we know and see everyday, behaving how they want to behave under the cover of darkness. Like, it’s a mirror. It’s our responsibility.

That’s what I’ve always believed. But what if that wasn’t true? What if you found out the internet was bad, not because of the people on it, but because powerful people were designing it to be that way? What if you found out it was part of somebody’s plan?

This is a story about a person who met the people behind the plan.

Her name’s Andrea Noel, and she’s an American reporter who covers Mexico.

ANDREA NOEL: I was based in Mexico City for several years and now I float between the border region and Mexico City, I go back and forth.
PJ: And what do you usually cover?
ANDREA: Normally I cover politics, corruption, drug war. I’m kind of on the drug beat.

PJ: So the thing that happened to Andrea, it actually happened on her day off.


PJ: She was taking a walk in Condesa, her neighborhood in Mexico City,

ANDREA: I remember very vividly that I was walking down the street, kicking myself and just thinking, you know, what have I been doing for the last six months, why haven’t I been leaving the house and walking around. It’s, you know, walking by the park and everything’s beautiful and people are laughing and it’s a great day and I was literally having that thought–

PJ: When out of nowhere, she feels a stranger’s hands pull up her dress and pull down her underwear. She drops to the pavement.

ANDREA: And I do this 360, and there’s nobody behind me, and this guy’s running away in like slow motion, and I’m not chasing after him and he’s just running away.


PJ: The guy turns a corner and he vanishes. Andrea stands up, she looks around. No witnesses. This guy has just attacked her in broad daylight, and there’s nothing she can do about it.

ANDREA: Like, I blamed myself basically. Like why am I wearing these shoes, why didn’t I chase the guy? In any case, the–these thoughts lasted for a few seconds. And I started walking, just ready to continue with my day. And then I saw that there was a camera pointed at exactly where this had happened in front of a building.


ANDREA: So I saw that camera, and then I looked around, and saw another camera, and then I looked around, and saw another camera, and there were just cameras everywhere.


PJ: And so right then and there, she comes up with a plan. After blowing off some steam with an angry tweet, she decides, “I am going to get the surveillance footage.” So she starts knocking on doors, until she finds this building manager who says, “Yeah absolutely. You can have it.” He lets her tape it off the monitor using her cell phone.

The video is short. You see Andrea, alone on the street. You see the guy as he runs up behind her and attacks. And as he flees, he runs towards the camera, so you get this blurry glimpse of his face. And then there’s just a moment where you look back towards Andrea, you see her pulling her underwear back on and looking around on the street. Even watching it feels kind of like a violation. But Andrea writes a new tweet, she asks if anybody can help her identify this idiot, and she posts it, along with the video.

PJ:  Did it feel weird just like putting that online? Like letting people see you in a way, in a moment where you were being attacked?
ANDREA: Yeah ‘cause I- I- well–I mean I wanted people to believe that it was real, because I had tweeted when it happened, “This happened,” and people were like not believing it.
PJ: Mmhmm
ANDREA: I- I–I just could not wrap my head around the fact that people were accusing me of like making this thing up.

PJ: Particularly because street harassment is notoriously bad in Mexico City. Nine out of every ten women have experienced sexual violence on their daily commutes, and police rarely prosecute the people who do this. Actually last year, the mayor’s big solution was to hand out whistles that women could blow if they felt unsafe. So Andrea knows that the guy who did this to her fully expects to get away with it, and she just decides she is sick of this.


ANDREA: Because at that point, you know, like, my initial fear just became like, rage, and I really wanted to get the guy.

PJ: It turns out, she’s not alone. When she posts the video, she immediately starts hearing from all these women who are just as mad as she is.

ANDREA: Thousands of tweets started pouring in, faster than you can scroll. I mean it’s fifteen per second, and it’s just going, and you can’t even read them all.

PJ: All these women across Mexico responding with their own stories of horrific violence.

ANDREA:  You know, it was like I was a proxy, I was like a vessel for all of this… just impotence, I think is the thing. It’s like, “Shit man we’ve been silenced, but here’s somebody who’s talking so like, GO GO GO GO” you know? It’s like…
PJ: Yeah.

ANCHOR: Como espuma crecido el indignación por el caso de Andrea Noel

ANDREA ON TV: Entonces volví, tome fotos de las cameras, y luego…

PJ: By the next morning she’s live on the news.

ANCHOR 3: Andrea Noel escribío en su cuenta de Twitter. “Me acaban de levantar el vestido y bajar los calzones…”

PJ: It’s like overnight, she’s become a household name. And Andrea’ll be the first to tell you, she’s a weird poster child for this moment. She’s American, not Mexican. And what happened to her on the street is bad, but it’s not even the worst thing that had happened to her in the past year. But the fact that she’s saying, “Even this shouldn’t happen to women on the street,” that feels audacious.

And her supporters decide, “We are gonna help you find this guy.” And within 48 hours, they have a suspect.


PJ: This local YouTube celebrity named Andoni Echave.

Not only does Andoni look like the guy in the surveillance footage: same hair, same build, same complexion. The real thing that makes him look guilty as sin is the actual show that he hosts. It’s a prank show called Master Troll.


PJ: Master Troll looks like a show where a bunch of people watch Jackass, and they were like “Let’s make this, but dumber and meaner.” So the pranks are stuff like, they’ll run up to an old lady and hit her with an inflatable hammer.

Another one is they’ll go up to women, and French kiss them, and then run off. And they like to pull men’s pants down. They run up behind men, they pull down their pants, and spank them. And the place where all of these pranks were filmed was Condesa, Andrea’s neighborhood.

Andoni put out a video officially denying responsibility, but you could tell he and his crew didn’t mind the negative attention. They were actually trying to promote the new TV show they had premiering that week.

ANDREA: They were really thrilled about the publicity, and loving it. Living, living it up. You know, they uploaded one video where they go around like pulling men’s pants down and said, “If you thought some lying hysterical hag would stop us, well, you’re wrong, hahaha!”


PJ: Andrea and Andoni, they have now stumbled onstage for the sort of culture war that we have every other week in America.


PJ: And you know how these go. It’s Mike Pence vs. the cast of Hamilton. It’s Lena Dunham vs., for some reason, a local no-kill animal shelter.

And the two of them, Andoni and Andrea, they’re just like perfect foils for each other. Like Andoni is like the chauvinist with the offensive TV show. Andrea’s the feminist Internet writer who writes articles about how shows like that are problematic.

And it’s exactly the car crash you expect. Team Andoni says “Not only did he not do it, Andrea’s a fraud, she’s a liar.” Team Andrea actually circulates a petition and gets the Master Troll TV show cancelled.

Fighting goes on for weeks, and it’s an even bigger story because the Mexico police are involved, which is crazy because the Mexico City police do not investigate crimes like this. Only seven out of 100 crimes in Mexico are even reported.  But now, when Andrea goes to the prosecutor’s office, they live tweet that she is being attended to.

That eight-second video of the attack, it becomes like the Kennedy assassination film. Everybody is watching it, trying to figure out exactly what they think happened. Including Andrea, who despite this huge fight is still not completely sure that Andoni is in fact the guy who attacked her.

ANDREA: You know I–I spent so many hours over the course of those weeks like frame by frame by frame.Doing like side by sides and really, really trying to look and like at one point I was looking for a tattoo that may or may not have been on his arm and you know I was looking at the shirt that he was wearing that looked like maybe a logo of a skull and then going through all of his photos trying to figure out like, “Is there a shirt like that? What is the clothes–” He wears vests. This guy is wearing a vest.

PJ: But while Andrea is anxiously re-watching the video, the story she’s in, it’s actually turning into a kind of nightmare. Andrea starts getting these death threats, not that she hadn’t gotten death threats before, but these are different.

ANDREA: Not just like, you know, “I’m going to rape you, bitch.” It’s more like photos of like skinned animals and like dead women.

And you know video messages saying, “I know where you live and the boss gave the order.”

SCARY AUDIO: (in Spanish) “Miss Andrea Noel, if you do not forget what happened, we’ll cut your little face. Remember (unintelligible) and we do what we want. Respect your life and that of your friends.

PJ: This person is saying, “If you don’t forget what happened, we’ll cut your little face. We do what we want. Respect your life, and that of your friends.” But what really scares Andrea are the pictures they send of themselves. Young men with dead eyes, staring into the camera holding guns.

ANDREA: Mexico is a country where only criminals and cops have guns, so when you think, he’s got guns, that just kind of shows you that you’re dealing with the level of like we’re either dealing with an authority, or we’re dealing with somebody who’s like involved in drug cartels.

PJ: It was only later that the strangeness of all this would sink in for her.

In what possible world did it make sense that that her accidentally getting a month-old TV show cancelled would piss off these kinds of people and this much?

Also, they seemed like an organized group. For instance, when they wanted to attack her, they had this signal, they’d retweet one of her tweets and just attached one word: ojo.

ANDREA: Which means eyeball ,and it just means like, “look.” Um, so I would see under a tweet that I would post, um, somebody would tag a troll and say “ojo” and then that troll would retweet that, and then his whole network of thousands of Twitter followers to go directly after me, and then, everybody knew to jump onto it.
PJ: They’re like little messenger ants.
ANDREA: Yes, absolutely. And that would precede a slew of death threats and rape threats.

PJ: There was this one guy that Andrea calls Pasta Prophet, he would show up again and again.

ANDREA: He probably had about 80,000 followers, and a very large network of people he was, you know, interacting with.

PJ: She gets Twitter to shut his account down. That does not phase him at all.

ANDREA: I then saw him re-emerge immediately as a new account, um, which very rapidly accumulated tens of thousands of followers.

PJ: And then it starts to bleed into the real world. Like the day that she’s eating at a restaurant and Pasta Prophet tweets a map of the area. Or the time she’s just walking out in town and she gets another tweet with her location, this time with the message: “Finish her off.” She starts to feel like the only place where she’s even safe is at her house. And then one day, she’s at home, in her apartment:

ANDREA: I was in my living room, I was sitting at my computer which is over by a window and noticed like a green light in my eye and um realized that there was like a green laser on my forehead.And then, I stood up and ducked and moved away and the laser followed me across the room.
PJ: That’s so creepy.
ANDREA: It felt like a, like a, “We know where you live.”

PJ: Andrea’s had it. She gives up her apartment, she gives away her cat, she leaves the country. She’s just not safe there anymore.

And then comes the final humiliation. This whole time, the police have had additional surveillance footage of the attack, but Andrea hasn’t been allowed to see it. Now they’re saying she might get to, but there’s a catch. They need her to come back to Mexico, and go in front of a judge for something called a preliminary trial. Essentially, what this means, is that for the first time, Andrea will be publicly saying, “I think Andoni did it.”

And then, and only then, the judge might decide to release the surveillance footage.

So she agrees to do this. And while she’s in the air, there’s no Internet on the flight back to Mexico, she actually misses the big news. Which is that Andoni has found his own surveillance footage of the attack.

ANDREA: And you can very clearly see that it was not him. He tweets the video. And outrage cycle begins again, I land, and I’m the biggest piece of shit that’s ever walked the earth.

PJ: Andoni is now the real hero of the story. Andrea’s the villain who tried to take him down. The cops completely drop the investigation. The actual culprit, whoever he is, will never be found. Andrea cannot believe that this is where things have ended up.


ANDREA: By the time this was over I was near suicidal to be honest. I could not believe what had happened. You know, I was just, I was horrified. I was horrified.

PJ: At first she just tried to stay off the Internet, to not read anything about what had happened to her. But it didn’t take long before she realized, she still had a question. Like, where had all of those people who were attacking her come from? Who was Pasta Prophet, who were his followers, what was going on here?

And as she started to wonder about this, she realized she had one clue she could follow. Which was that the trolls used to do this thing where they would send her pictures of this random guy and they’d say “He’s the one who attacked you, not Andoni.” At the time, she dismissed it, because she knew they were lying. But now, she started to wonder: Who was that guy? Why did they want to set him up?

ANDREA: So in some of those photo exchanges, in the sub-tweets and in the comments, I start to get a picture of, you know, I realize the guy’s named, let’s say, Jose. That’s not his name but let’s call him Jose. And, then I just keep watching. Weeks go by. Months go by. And then I learn that his name is Jose Felipe. And then a few more weeks go by, a few more months go by and then I see a last name. So you know over–just really being vigilant and aware, eventually I piece together a full name.

PJ: The full name gets her to a Facebook page. The Facebook page helps her piece together this guy’s life. But the thing that cracks it is when she notices that sometimes these accounts that are harassing Jose, they don’t call him Jose, they call him Pasta. Pasta Prophet. She finds Jose’s phone number and one night at a hotel in Mexico City, she decides, “I’m just going to try to call him.”

JOSE: Bueno?
ANDREA: Hola, perdon te marque ahorita, y si me había equivocado el numero, pero te buscaba a ti. Soy Andrea Noel, como estás?

PJ: After the break, Pasta Prophet.


PJ: Welcome back to the show. So before the break, Andrea Noel was about to meet Pasta Prophet.



PJ: She’s at the hotel bar. She’s waiting for him. She’s watching different strangers come through the door.


And finally, he enters.

ANDREA: And for me it was like seeing a ghost. It’s like, this guy walks in and I knew his face, like, so well at this point.

PJ: He’s short, he’s a little chubby, he’s got a babyface.He sits down across from her, and they begin a very long conversation.


PJ: Pasta Prophet, for reasons that’ll become clear, did not want to be interviewed for this story. But here’s what Andrea says happened next.

ANDREA: The first thing we did was call a truce, of course, because, you know, I brought down his account and, he didn’t like that. And then he also threatened to kill me, and I didn’t like that.


ANDREA: My main motivation in talking to him was of course, I just wanted to know why, you know, I just wanted to know why all of this had happened.

PJ: He says, “OK, I’ll explain. Everything that happened to you happened because you were a pawn in a much bigger plan.” And he says he wants to tell her about that plan, because he feels like at a certain point, things just went too far.

ANDREA: He was basically a–a door opening into all–this world that I had spent the previous year only like poking at from the sidelines, and not really fully understanding.


PJ: So for years Andrea had heard about this conspiracy theory. That the Mexican government had somehow found a way to manipulate what news people ended up seeing on the Internet. Not censorship, something sneakier. And Pasta Prophet told her, these rumors, they’re true. I know because this is the work that I do. And so Andrea started to get a picture of how this worked. Not just in this one conversation, but in many more she would have with Pasta Prophet, and then many interviews she would have with other people who had been involved in this whole system.


PJ: So, as far as Andrea can tell, here’s how this whole thing started. In the year 2000, a completely unprecedented thing happened in Mexican politics, which is that the PRI, the party who had ruled Mexico for 71 years uninterrupted, they lost a presidential election. And then they lost the next one. And so they got desperate. And when the next campaign season started, these mysterious help-wanted ads started to appear online. Job opportunities for young, Internet savvy people with an interest in politics.

I talked to a woman who actually ended up answering one of these ads. We’re gonna call her Sophie. We’ve disguised her voice.

SOPHIE:  I went to an interview, and they asked me things, like if I knew how to use Twitter, if I knew what was a hashtag. And I told “Yes yes yes,” and then they hired me and I began working like 3 days after my interview.


PJ: So Sophie shows up for her first day of work. The office is actually a house, in a neighborhood that she thinks is kinda sketchy.

And she learns that her job is gonna be to get young people to vote for the PRI’s candidate, Enrique Pena Nieto.

PJ: Would they have you tweet under your own personal account or did they have an account they wanted you to use?
SOPHIE: No they gave us a lot of accounts. In my case I had three or four. There were people that had more, like five or six, there were people that only had one, but they were fake accounts. You could not use your Twitter account for anything, anything, anything, because it was like secret.

PJ: For the record, we’ve reached out to multiple people at the PRI. None of them were able to provide us comment for this story. Sophie, and the hundred other people that worked alongside her, their job was to amplify good news about Peña Nieto, and bury the bad news. And for the people in her office and the many other offices like hers, the techniques for burying the bad news were kind of fascinating. Andrea got her hands on a bunch of the internal emails where this is described, but basically if you were an employee in one of these offices, you were given meticulous plans for how to fill the Internet with white noise.

ANDREA: So, in the morning you arrive at your desk and there’ll be an hour by hour strategy beginning, let’s say, 8 a.m. We’re gonna launch the hashtag “Happy whatever day it is.” Next would be, “Hashtag don’t you hate it when,” and then would be, “Hashtag my mom just told me,” or like “Hashtag I’ve never felt better than.”
PJ: It’s sort of- it’s the same–
ANDREA: It’s fill-in-the-blank sentences–
PJ: Terrible, mad-libs memes that dominate actually like a lot of American Twitter.

PJ: So they were basically do the work that Russian trolls would later do in the American election. Fill the internet with spam, and then have a bunch of fake people promoting opinions. But sometimes that strategy wasn’t enough. Sometimes there’d be a piece of news that was just too big to drown out. Like when The Guardian released a story alleging that the PRI had been bribing the country’s big TV network in exchange for good coverage.

For stuff like that, they would create a massive diversion online. They’d make up an event.

ANDREA: So you know, they call them smokescreens and you can see it like bullet pointed–
PJ: Like internally they called them smokescreens?
ANDREA: Oh yeah, I mean, there’s no, they’re not–they’re not shy about the terminology and they’re not pretending like I mean that’s the really, the thing that surprised me is how explicit and blatant the language is that they’re using. So a combination of smokescreens that can be like, actually I think they killed Justin Bieber when that article came out.
PJ: They killed Justin Bieber?
ANDREA: Yeah, but they’ve done that a bunch of times. You can see them killing Bieber three or four times.

PJ: So Andrea actually corrected herself later, it turns out that that time, after The Guardian story, they didn’t kill Bieber, they just pretended to cancel one of his concerts. Other times, he was not so lucky. And if every diversion failed, they still had one more tool. They’d just start a fight. They’d tweet some offensive, vitriolic hashtag and then hope that the ensuing argument drowned out any other conversation.

ANDREA: So it’ll be like “fuck gays” and there you go and all these people jump on to it.
PJ: Like instead of saying, “Hey everybody loves the president and hates his opponent.” You’re like, “Hey does everybody love Wednesday and hate gay people?”
ANDREA: (laughs)
PJ: And like- through like–banality and viciousness you can just like flood the room so that no real conversation takes place.
ANDREA: Exactly, and so that’s the whole strategy and you can see it hour by hour by hour.

PJ: So for three months, Sophie kills a bunch of celebrities and pretends to be a bunch of different people who really love Peña Nieto. And then it’s July, and it’s election day.  And on election day, something happens that Sophie does not see coming.


PJ: Peña Nieto actually wins. The PRI is back in power. Sophie and a lot of her coworkers were stunned.

SOPHIE: The day of the, the final results of the elections, we cried.
PJ: In the blog center?
SOPHIE: In the blog center. We cried. Yeah because we didn’t want Peña Nieto to win, but we were working for him. So it was a very strange thing. But we thought at the beginning that Lopez Obrador was going to win.
PJ: So it felt safe to do a job that you didn’t agree with because you didn’t think it would matter?
SOPHIE: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

PJ: So, Pena Nieto takes office. And Andrea says that afterwards, things change. Some smart person at the PRI realizes, “Oh no. We’ve built a super risky system here. There’s a paper trail of pay stubs and contracts that runs from us, to our marketing agency, to hundreds of people like Sophie. Which is a huge problem, because what we’re doing here is against the rules.”


And so they build this new system which other parties quickly adopt. Now, you take your money, you give it to your agency. But instead of hiring a bunch of people, they contract out to a very small network of anonymous freelancers. Freelancers like Pasta Prophet.

ANDREA: So, to explain. what we’re talking about is a network of freelancers who are basically faceless, you know, they don’t have to know each other’s names, they just know each other’s usernames, they’re in these WhatsApp groups, and they share information.

There’s no way to trace back the money. There’s no way to know where it’s coming from.

PJ: Pasta Prophet is a mercenary. He doesn’t have political loyalty. He’s happy to promote or target anybody, as long the money’s good. And it–the money is really good, he says he can make $1,000 for getting a political hashtag to trend. And the reason he can do this, the thing that makes him good at his job, is that he has this huge volunteer army by his side. This volunteer army that’s made up of Mexico’s most notorious Internet troublemakers.

ANDREA: There are these groups of, they’re Facebook groups that exist in Mexico That have gathered hundreds of thousands of like young, young children, like, 12 years old, 13-year-olds, 14-year-olds.

PJ: The kids in these groups, they’re the kind of kids who would be on 4chan in the U.S. They like sharing memes and they like trying to impress each other with excessive, imaginative acts of cruelty. The most notorious groups is called Holk Legion, their logo looks like Pepe the Frog, but on steroids.

The quickest way to explain what they’re like: In the aftermath of a horrific school shooting in Mexico last year, Holk Legion started publicly bickering with another similar group saying the shooter is one of our guys, not yours.  Anyway, Holk Legion? They also happen to be Pasta Prophet’s army.

ANDREA: He’s what they call in Mexico like a chavoruco, like an old kid. You know like he was too old to be one of them, but he was their boss. He’s their admin. So they do a lot of stuff to get into his good favor, because they wanna be cool, and they wanna be accepted.

PJ: If Pasta Prophet asked one of these kids to go do something mean or cruel or mischievous, they’re game. But remember, he needs them to help him do his professional political work.

ANDREA: So, and here’s how he explained it to me. Say you’ve got 300 kids at your disposal. These kids want to spend their day sharing momos and having lolz. So obviously these kids aren’t gonna sign up to just move this really boring political spam all day.

He’ll say, “We’re going to do this for 15 minutes. Everybody get in. Everybody get on it. The rest of the day is recess.”

PJ: Recess meaning that Holk Legion got to do what Holk Legion actually liked doing: harassing people. Which finally answered the question that had brought Andrea all the way to Pasta Prophet.

ANDREA: You know specifically I asked him why he threatened to kill me, because that was a question that I had —
PJ: Yeah.
ANDREA: — lingering. And he essentially explained it as, his exact quote was it was for love of the sport.
PJ: The sport.
ANDREA: Yeah. I was recess. I was for love of the sport.
PJ: Wow.
ANDREA: I got trolled by a bunch a 12-year-olds
PJ: Christ. How did it feel, finding that out? You seem chagrined more than anything.
ANDREA: I mean… wha- I mean what can I say about this? You know it’s just- it’s so… It’s been so confusing and, once I finally did figure it out- I mean you just feel like the biggest idiot in the world.

PJ: Everything that had scared her so much: the pictures, the messages, the thing with laser pointer, even the fact that they knew where she was sometimes– They were just a bunch of kids who liked to troll her, and some of them probably lived in her neighborhood. The more scared she got, the funnier it was to them. The only person who hadn’t been that amused was Pasta Prophet. After a while he started to feel bad, like they’d gone too far. And so he tried to cut ties with him.

ANDREA: It’s kind of life the mafia, I’ve realized, in that you can’t voluntarily leave. So then he became a target.

PJ: Which is why the kids had been sending Andrea his picture, trying to frame him. But in doing so, they’d made a mistake. They’d left a breadcrumb that Andrea could follow back to Pasta Prophet, back to them, back to the whole system they were a part of.

A system where Mexicans were getting an Internet that was more toxic and more horrible, and politicians were making it that way so that they could distract them. So Andrea has spent the last year learning everything she can about how that system works, and she’s showed us the hundreds of documents she’s planning to publish, demonstrating everything she’s learned. Her timing couldn’t be better, it’s election season.


ANDREA: We’re about to just decide, you know, the future of Mexico. And it could go a number of ways. We could either stick with the ruling party, which has shown itself to be brutal and horrific or we could go with like the leftist populist leader who’s often compared to like a Chavez-type. You know, I can’t remember a time that was quite as decisive as right now

PJ: And so Andrea finds herself in familiar, treacherous territory. She’s about to go out in public, and say this thing that she knows will piss off a lot of people, draw a fresh bullseye on her back. She knows Holk Legion is not going to like what she publishes.

ANDREA: Um and then obviously the rest of the story is when I like start pointing fingers at a lot of these super filthy politicians…And the president of the fucking country. Um so yeah I’m a little bit nervous.
PJ: But it’s funny you’re talking about like the hell-storm that you’re very possibly about to walk into and like, I can hear that you’re smiling.
PJ: What’s that about?
ANDREA: Well okay, so for me, it is incredibly satisfying to have an answer to a question, to a series of questions that um, to have reached an understanding of something that I did not understand. Um, you know, it’s like, becoming an expert thereminist.
PJ: (laughs) You mean cause it’s like this obscure strange thing?
ANDREA: Yeah it’s–just strange thing and you don’t quite know where to begin and then a year later, you know, um, –you’re uh, you got it.


PJ: Andrea Noel reports for the Daily Beast


PJ: Reply All is hosted by me, PJ Vogt and Alex Goldman. Our show is produced by Sruthi Pinnamaneni, Phia Bennin, and Damiano Marchetti. Our editor is Tim Howard. We had additional production help from Khrista Rhypl, and additional editing help from Sara Sarasohn. The show is mixed by Rick Kwan. Factchecking by Michelle Harris and Ana Prieto. Our intern is Anna Foley. Our theme music is by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Matt Lieber is snow before you get sick of it. Happy first birthday to Fitz Nagle. If you’d like, you can visit our website at You can find more episodes of the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or on cassettes that you’ve recorded the show on to, if you’re really old fashioned. Thanks for listening, we’ll see you next week.

#111 The Return of the Russian Passenger

After a secret breaks in the news, Reply All re-examines how Alex Blumberg’s Uber account was hacked. This episode is a follow up to #91 The Russian Passenger and #93 Beware All. Further reading: The Best Password Managers

December 7, 2017
View show transcript

ALEX GOLDMAN: So last March, our boss Alex Blumberg, came to us with what we thought was a very simple question. His Uber account had been hacked, and he wanted to know how it happened. And answering that simple question sent us on a quest that took months, but finally we got an answer.

And then, a month ago, a secret was revealed that totally upended our understanding of the story. So we’ve decided to reopen it.

Today, we’re re-airing the original story, and then following it up with more reporting. If you want to skip straight to the new stuff, it’s around 42 minutes.

Ok, here’s the show. 

[Theme music]

ALEX GOLDMAN: From Gimlet, this is Reply All. I’m Alex Goldman.

PJ VOGT: And I’m PJ Vogt.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh, this week we have our boss, Alex Blumberg, in the studio. Uh Alex actually just got back from a vacation in the Bahamas. Uh. How was it?

ALEX BLUMBERG: It was great.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So…  Alex, you asked us to come into the studio and I don’t have any idea why. So, lay it on us!

ALEX BLUMBERG: I need some super tech support help—

PJ: Whoa! You’re crossing segments.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) I am. I’m–that’s right.

PJ: What’s your super tech support question?

ALEX BLUMBERG: So I was coming home, so I got home from vacation, I woke up the next day, and I look at my phone, uh, and I see some Uber notifications. And this is weird because I haven’t called Uber ’cause it was like six in the morning. And, that was weird enough. But the really weird thing is that the Uber notifications were in Russian. Here’s a screenshot.

PJ: (whispers) What?

ALEX BLUMBERG: So and I actually speak a little Russian.

PJ: Oh right. So what does it say?

ALEX BLUMBERG: This one says (speaking Russian) which means, your Uber is en route. Ar-Arthur, 4.9 stars, is um, will be there in one minute. Uh, you know, then the next one–Dennis is arriving in a Mercedes Benz E-class–

PJ: Nice!

ALEX BLUMBERG: License plate, blah blah blah blah blah. Arthur is arriving in a Kia Rio. It’s literally–

PJ: Oh! So it’s more than one ride though?

ALEX BLUMBERG: So it’s more than one ride, two–like two different people have called Ubers in Russia (laughs) and the notifications are being sent to my phone.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Alright, so I have some questions.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Did you check your Uber account to see if these rides appeared in your history, if that’s possible?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Ok, so, I checked my bank account, and in fact my bank account had been charged with two rides, 25 dollars.

PJ: So, like, what my brain is saying is: “Somehow, someone, in Russia, got the password for your Uber and is just like–”

ALEX BLUMBERG: And hacked my Uber account, right?

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Right, but it’s still being charged to my bank account.

PJ: Yeah.


PJ: This actually, this seems annoying, but it seems like you call Uber, you tell them this happened, they refund the charges and they change your password.


PJ: (laughing)

ALEX BLUMBERG: How innocent. You’re like an innocent, naive little lamb.

PJ: Ok, so what happens?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Alright, so then I like I press the Uber icon on my phone to like, go in, and instead of the normal thing that happens when it shows up and it says, “Hi Alex Blumberg, blah blah blah, where would you like to go?” whatever, the normal screen, I get this screen. . . And it says–

PJ: What? “Uber. Get moving with Uber. Enter your mobile number.” So it’s treating you as a new user, basically–

ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s treating me as the-as if I just downloaded the app and I-they have no record of who I am or anything, and-and–

PJ: Which is weird because you’re on your phone.

ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s on my phone. It’s the app that was installed my phone, but when I open it up, it doesn’t recognize me. So then I’m like, “Uh oh.”

So then the next step would be to call Uber… (pause) It’s impossible to call Uber.


ALEX BLUMBERG: So we emailed and I got a [sic] e-mail response from them saying like, “We are unable to find a-any account associated with this email and mobile number.” And then I wrote back and I was like, “That’s really weird, because that’s my phone number, it’s definitely associated with this account, I have–I just received notifications this morning to this number.”

PJ: “Credit card charges from your company.”

ALEX BLUMBERG: “I have credit card charges from your company,” etc. etc. etc. And they wrote back the same thing, and they wrote back, “Sorry to hear your trouble, uh, we’re unable to find an account associated with the email, number. For security reasons, please email–”

And so then I kept on writing. And they kept on sending the same form email back and forth, and so then I was like, ok, what do I need to do? How do I–how am I gonna get out of this machine loop that I’m in here, where they keep sending me the same form letter back–

PJ: Over and over again.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Over and over again. And so then I was like, maybe if I-I wrote the word “escalate.”

PJ: (laughing)

ALEX BLUMBERG: And then I started typing some things in all caps–

ALEX GOLDMAN: Wait you just–you–

ALEX BLUMBERG: And I started cursing, just to, is this going to like get me to a higher level of service?

PJ: Like when you get a robot on the phone sometimes when, it’s like you say the right words.

ALEX BLUMBERG: “Agent! Agent! Agent!” I was doing the email equivalent of ‘agent’ over and over again.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Were you do–were you sending these all as individual emails?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah yeah yeah, no, so I have, yeah. So look–it’s like 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, you know, it’s basically 15-20 emails back and forth between me and Uber.

PJ: And it’s all getting the same…

ALEX BLUMBERG: And it’s all getting the same thing. So, by this time I’d roped my wife Nazanin into helping me with this, and we found, and she-her Uber app was still working. And so she found, inside the app, there’s–there is a number that you can find and it’s the number that you are supposed to call if you’ve been assaulted or endangered. That’s the one number that is an actual human being on the other end.

PJ: Huh.

ALEX BLUMBERG: So I called that number.


ALEX BLUMBERG: And I said, “I haven’t been assaulted by a driver.”

PJ: But I need to talk to a person!

ALEX BLUMBERG: “But I need to talk to a person, because”–and then there was a very, very nice lady who was like, “I will try to, I–lemme try to help you.”

I explained to her the whole story, and she was like “Gimme your phone number,” and I gave her my phone number and she was like “There is no–I have no memory of this phone number.”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Get outta here.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And she was like, “Hold on.” And then she came back and she was like, “There’s one more thing I can do. This is a little unorthodox, but if you give me your credit card number, I think I can call up your account through that.”

And I was like, “Ok.” And I gave her my credit card number, the credit card number that had been charged that very morning from Russia, and she was like, “I have no record of this credit card ever existing at Uber.

PJ: That is so weird.

ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s bonkers.

PJ: It feels–

ALEX BLUMBERG: My entire existence has been erased.

PJ: It feels creepy.

ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s super creepy. And then I was like, “Is there anybody that can help me?” And she was like, “There’s nothing I can do.” So then I was like, “Okay.” (sighs). So then I started emailing some more.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And what–were you getting any variation in response?

ALEX BLUMBERG: No, and then they stopped.

PJ: Did she give you advice about–

ALEX BLUMBERG: And they they just stopped even auto-responding.

PJ: They stopped responding to your emails at all?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yep. So I have not heard from them in three days.

ALEX GOLDMAN: (clears throat) Ok.

ALEX BLUMBERG: And here are my questions.

PJ: Yeah.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Go for it.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I want to know, how did this happen? And then …Did somehow I–I do this, or was this purely like a data breach at Uber?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Ok! I think that I–I hope that I can answer that. I will look into it for you and I will get back to you.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh, okay, a week ago–


ALEX GOLDMAN: You came to me with a problem.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And the first thing that I wanted to know was like, is this a freak occurance, or does this happen all the time? What I was struck by was how common this Uber hacking turned out to be. Like, I went on Twitter and found a ton of people who were having similar problems. Like I found people who were reporting that there were rides that they’d never taken in places like London and Hong Kong and France and Indonesia.  Like it’s happening all over the world.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And what I was curious about is where these hacked accounts were coming from.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Like, how were people getting their hands on them? And I saw that Joseph Cox, who is a writer for Motherboard, and he was on the show (laughing) the other week, um–

PJ: Helping me hack your phone.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Helping you hack my phone.

PJ: Yes.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, I saw that he had written about exactly this problem.

JOSEPH COX: Hello, can you hear me?
ALEX GOLDMAN: Yes, I can hear you well. Joseph?
JOSEPH: Yeah, how you doing man?

ALEX GOLDMAN: So I called him up in Berlin. And he told me that a while back he was browsing the dark web, and, if you don’t know what that is, that is just a … part of the internet that is not easy to get to, it requires special software to get on, and a lot of illegal stuff is sold there.

JOSEPH: Uh, so I was just browsing one of the Dark Web marketplaces, which uh … I actually spend a lot of time doing. You’ll just go through the listings like you’re on Amazon or Ebay or whatever, and you’ll come across something pretty interesting like 70% of the time.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Can you give me an example?
JOSEPH: Hazmat suits (laughs), AK47s.
ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs) Oh my god.
JOSEPH: You know, all–all the good stuff, really.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, Joseph was just poking around, not really looking for anything in particular.

JOSEPH: And I just came across this vendor who said he was selling Uber accounts, uh, and I thought, “Well, that’s pretty interesting.” And then we looked into, and there were a hell of a lot of people selling stolen Uber accounts on the dark web.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And Joseph told me that they’re relatively cheap.

PJ: How cheap is cheap?

ALEX GOLDMAN: They’re between four and seven dollars each.

ALEX BLUMBERG: So you can buy … somebody else’s Uber account.


ALEX BLUMBERG: For four to seven dollars.


ALEX BLUMBERG: And then, and then, basically what you’re doing is buying my password and login.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Your username and password.

PJ: The fact that like, oh, there’s all these accounts, like to me that suggests that it’s not everybody’s fault, that like, somebody isn’t getting, if somebody shows up and they’re like, “I got 1000 Uber accounts, you want to buy one?” It’s not because they guessed 1000 passwords, it’s because like, Uber made a mistake.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Totally! And that’s what I assumed was the case also. Except Joseph specifically asked Uber if they had gotten hacked.

JOSEPH: Uber, they totally denied that they had a data breach, and then as I continued to report and spoke to these hackers who said that–how they were accessing accounts, that kind of backed up what Uber said. We found no evidence that there was a data breach actually at Uber itself.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And so I decided to go on the dark web and just ask people like, “Hey–where are you getting these Uber accounts?” And, you would be surprised to learn (laughs), I’m sure you’ll be shocked, they’re not super stoked to talk to people who want to talk to them about their criminal activities.

PJ: Well they probably just don’t listen to podcasts.

ALEX GOLDMAN: But, this one guy went by the username “Passman.” Um, I sent him a message saying, “Did all of these Uber accounts come from some huge hack of Uber?”

And he told me the same thing Joseph told me, which was: he didn’t think that anything like that had happened.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And I said, “Interesting. Can you do me a favor, and see if, uh, any of these email addresses are in your cache of, um, hacked Uber accounts?”

PJ: And you gave him a bunch of Alex’s email addresses?

ALEX GOLDMAN: A couple. Yeah.

PJ: Ok.

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs) And his response was, and I quote, “Why are you giving me your boss’ email addresses? Do you want me to take a crack at his other accounts? That’s daring.”

ALL: (laughter)

PJ: I kind of agree with him.


PJ: “So I went to all the local muggers and I showed them a picture of you–”

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)

PJ: “–And your wallet, and they said they didn’t recognize you but it seemed like you have a lot of money!”

ALEX BLUMBERG: Oh my god. Okay.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Look, whatever, it’s done, I can’t take it back. Um. Regardless, Joseph told me that he had a theory for what might have happened, and it’s this thing that hackers do that’s called ‘credential stuffing.’

PJ: That sounds gross.

ALEX GOLDMAN: It does sound pretty gross. Joseph told me how it works:

JOSEPH: So companies’ websites are hacked every single day. Last year we had LinkedIn, Myspace, All of these other breaches of tens if not hundreds of millions of accounts. Uh, with email addresses, and passwords being traded amongst hackers. But if you’re a clever hacker, you’re not only going to use those details, to break into accounts on that one site, you’re gonna see if they work on something else. The problem there is that people are using the same password on multiple websites and services.
JOSEPH: All they’re doing is reusing the password, but they’ll have a special piece of software which can just churn through just hundreds if not thousands, very very quickly. The more that me and my colleagues report on these data breaches every other day, every week, it is password reuse that is the main threat to ordinary users of the internet for sure.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, at this point I’m thinking like, this might’ve been the thing that happened to you. Uh, someone got your password from some other account, like your account, and it was the same password that you use for Uber.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I mean who uses a different password for every single online service they’ve ever–?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, I–I totally agree. I don’t do it either. And I am definitely rethinking that now that I’ve reported this story. And, to that point, Joseph had a piece of advice.

JOSEPH: Get a password manager, which is a piece of software which will generate unique, strong passwords so you don’t have to remember them.

ALEX GOLDMAN: But, since I know you don’t use a password manager, um, I wanted to know if someone had found your password in some hack that had made its way onto the internet. And luckily there’s a guy who can tell us if that happened.

TROY HUNT: My name is Troy Hunt. I am a security researcher. And I am recording from my home on the Gold Coast in Australia.
ALEX GOLDMAN: Which Troy makes kinda sounds like heaven on earth…
TROY: It’s sunny. It’s gonna be 30 degrees, that’s celsius. Nice and warm. I think I might go out on the water.
TROY: It’s clear skies–


ALEX GOLDMAN: Troy’s an internet security researcher. So he knows that the more a person uses the internet, signs up for new services, new websites, the more vulnerable they become.

TROY: You sort of leave these little traces of yourself all over the internet. And as time goes by, those traces just get larger and larger. Uh, and the chances of one of the places you’ve left your data being breached and that data then being leaked continues to go up.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, in 2013, Troy started a website that’s called P-W-N-E-D. It’s a way for people to find out whether their personal information has ended up on the internet

TROY: So when we see data breaches where a company, like, say LinkedIn, is hacked and their data is, uh, ultimately spread across the internet, I grab these data breaches, I aggregate them into a service, and I make them searchable so that people can discover where they’ve been exposed.

PJ: So what’d you find?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Well PJ, why don’t you put your email, your–your personal email address into, into this.

PJ: Oh boy that’s, this is uncomfortable. Okay. [typing noise] Oh no.

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughing)

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughing)

PJ: Woooooow. I’ve been pwned.

ALEX GOLDMAN: On how many different sites?

PJ: Two! That’s crazy. Like these are… it’s Adobe and tumblr…  both of these are accounts that I’ve had forever. Oh that feels horrible.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Your username and password is on the dark web.

PJ: That is–


PJ: A really bad feeling.

ALEX BLUMBERG: That’s wild.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Alex Blumberg, would you like to take a look and see what’s going on here.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Oh god–have I been pwned?

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: I’m–this is terrifying to type this in. [typing sound] Good news! No pwnage found!

PJ: Wow!


ALEX GOLDMAN: Alex, I don’t want to rain on your parade, but Troy told me that just because the website shows that you haven’t been pwned, that doesn’t 100 percent mean that your credentials were never part of a data breach.

TROY: Yeah, there are a heap of unknown unknowns. (laughs) You know? There are all these things that happen that we simply never hear about. There’s stuff that has already happened that will come to light later on. And there’s also stuff that will never come to light.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, for example, in 2016, 360 million Myspace accounts were put up for sale on the dark web. But they had actually been taken in 2013. So for like three years someone was sitting on them, maybe using them, and, uh, Troy couldn’t put them in his data base because he didn’t know they’d been hacked.

ALEX BLUMBERG: So even though I got the message saying that I have not been pwned, I may still be pwned–


ALEX BLUMBERG: Somewhere. Should we interrupt this super tech support to do a very quick Yes Yes No on the, on the origin of pwned?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah. It’s very easy. You ready?


ALEX GOLDMAN: Most people know it because in video games, when you beat somebody very badly you say that they’re “owned.”


ALEX GOLDMAN: And the ‘p’ is right next to the ‘o’ so people frequently misspelled it and then they misspelled it frequently enough that it just became it’s own word.


PJ: I could have told you that also. [pause] I didn’t know that. (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) So

ALEX GOLDMAN: Right. So based on talking to Troy and to Joseph, my working hypothesis has been like your Friendster account got hacked and it made it’s way onto the internet somewhere and it’s just never come to light. But, then I got in touch with Uber. And what they think happened, actually might be a lot worse than that.

ALEX BLUMBERG: What?! What did they tell you?

ALEX GOLDMAN: So you told me at the beginning of the show that your account just disappeared all together. Like Uber did not recognize its existence.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yes, exactly.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And what they told me was, when someone changes their account info, like their email address or their phone number, the support team only has access to the new information. So the way that they found your hacked account was the screenshots that we sent them, of your phone’s lock screen, which had driver names and driver’s licenses on them. And from the license plate numbers, they identified the rides that were taken. And from those rides, they identified your account and got it back for you.

Um but once they got your account back, they took a look at it, and they told me that they’re pretty sure that not only was your Uber account hacked, but your Gmail account was hacked.

MELANIE ENSIGN: What we saw on our end, um, was … some suspicious logins, um, for Alex’s Uber account. So whoever was trying to log in did have his password. Um, but we have systems that will detect, um, logins that look suspicious.

ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s Melanie Ensign, and she is the person whose job it is to talk about security at Uber. And Melanie told me that when Uber saw your trips in Moscow, the ones that you didn’t actually take, they sent you an email that said, “You have to click on this link to verify that you’re actually now in Moscow.”

MELANIE: And so, whoever had access to his email account was clicking on those links, verifying it was him, and then deleting the notification before he saw them.
MELANIE: And that’s why since Alex doesn’t have any memory of … ever seeing the email, why we believe that somebody had access to his email account first, um, because somebody was taking action on those emails and then deleting them.

ALEX BLUMBERG: These is where I’m like, “Okay maybe.” But there’s one thing that still does not make sense to me. I have two-step verification. And the–the purpose of this is that is to protect against just the thing that Uber is saying happened to my account.

In theory, even if hackers got my password information from the dark web, they go to their Russian computers and their Russian cyber cafe, they login, and then they’re gonna get a message that says, “Please enter the code.” And so, and I would be getting a text to my phone saying, “Here’s your authentication code,” and I’d be like what in the world is going on here and then I would like sound the alarms. So this–that’s what I don’t understand. Like how, because I have two-step verification, how did somebody manage to do this from a remote computer?

PJ: I mean is the question you’re really asking just, is Uber lying basically? Like are they saying that they sent suspicious activity emails that they didn’t really send and they’re trying to cover their asses?

ALEX BLUMBERG: I don’t think Uber’s lying. But I want to  find out, can we determine, there’s gotta be somebody you can call in to make sure–to tell me if my account has been hacked or not. My Gmail account.


PJ: And then, yeah–

ALEX BLUMBERG: And is it hacked still? Am I, at this very moment, pwned?

PJ/ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughing)


ALEX GOLDMAN: Alright. I’ll uh try to figure it out.



ALEX GOLDMAN: (clears throat) Okay so it’s been a couple days. And I just sorta wanted to recap where we’re at.


ALEX GOLDMAN: At first I thought that Uber had had some kind of data breach and your username and password had made it out into the world. And that does not appear to be the case. And then, I thought that maybe another account of yours got hacked from somewhere else and people used that username and password for your Uber, but that also seems unlikely.

And when I went to Uber, Uber told me that your Gmail account had probably been hacked. And so, uh, like I said, I’ve been looking into this and I don’t know what happened to your gmail.

PJ: (laughing)


ALEX GOLDMAN: And in the past when tech support problems have gotten bigger than me– Or at least once, we brought in a ringer.

PJ: (gasps dramatically)


PJ: Sort of like a super Alex Goldman.

ALEX GOLDMAN: He, yes. We brought in someone who is basically a super version of me. His name’s Dave Maynor. He is a security researcher, he lives in Atlanta, and I have him on the phone.



DAVE: How you guys doing?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Good. Hey Dave.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So Alex, I’ve already briefed Dave on what’s going on with you, so you can ask him any question you want.

ALEX BLUMBERG: So, that, my question is: Did someone take over my Gmail account? Um, and does somebody still have access to my Gmail, ’cause that would be scary. And–

DAVE: Well–

ALEX BLUMBERG: It doesn’t seem possible because I had two-factor auth–authentication.

DAVE: Let’s start with your questions. First of all, is it possible? Yes, this happens all the time.The next step to–to kind of, narrow down this mystery, is to take a look at the access logs for your Gmail account and see if there is anything suspicious.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Ok, so where do I find the access logs?

DAVE: So, there is one where you can go to like this

ALEX BLUMBERG: (typing) Slash device, slash activity?

DAVE: Device DASH, uh activity. Like hyphen.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Alright. Yeah. Mac–and it’s got a bunch of Nassau, the Bahamas; Windows, the Bahamas.

PJ: Wait, Windows, the Bahamas?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh, it shows a windows machine, which Alex does not have, accessing his account from the Bahamas.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Oh–yeah, but no I did, ’cause, my dad had his, yes, no, my dad had his Microsoft tablet. So I tried to log on–that’s right, I tried to log on to a Google Docs thing. But my account was compromised three days or four days after I accessed the Surface. So it wasn’t like it happened right away.

DAVE: Well, so when you’re, when you’re a bad guy in the credential harvesting business, right, you’re getting a lot of information in at once, you gotta classify it.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Right, got it.

DAVE: And then you’ve got to sell it off to someone to make–uh, to, to use.


DAVE: So it’s not like it’s an instantaneous thing.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Got it. And how would they do that without him noticing?

DAVE: Well I mean–malware works in mysterious ways.

ALEX BLUMBERG: So it’s like, it’s in the background?

DAVE: Right.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I see. So it’s in the background, it’s running in the background, it’s mimicking … it’s mimicking an actual legitimate user accessing Gmail, accessing Gmail, even though it’s not showing up on the screen or anything.

DAVE: Right.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yeah. Ok, let’s call my dad real fast.



PJ: Do we call… your dad’s name is Richard … Do we call him Mr. Blumberg?

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughing) No you can call him Richard.

PJ: I don’t know if I can call him Richard.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughing) You can call him Richard.

PJ: I feel like I’m gonna call him Mr. Blumberg.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughing) Ok.

Hello Dad?


ALEX GOLDMAN: Hi, Mr. Blumberg.

PJ: Hey, Mr. Blumberg.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) You guys both went for Mr..

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: I, I told told them to go with Richard.

RICHARD: If you’re gonna be PJ and Alex, I’m gonna be Richard.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So Alex caught … Richard up on everything that happened so far and explained that we wanted to check his tablet to see if that’s how the hackers got into Alex’s Uber account.

ALEX BLUMBERG: There was one time when I logged into my account that was on a computer that people say could have been–could have been compromised. And that is when I log–tried to log into my Gmail account from your tablet.

RICHARD: Surface Pro.


RICHARD: Yeah. Well I will say that sometime in the last few weeks, and it may have been when we were in the Bahamas, I got an email from, uh, Google saying that someone had tried to log into my–my Gmail account from a computer in … somewhere that I’d never been. I can’t remember where it was.

And, so I deauthorized that, I said, “No that’s not an authorized computer,” and then I went out and I changed my Gmail password immediately. You know, I haven’t used the Surface Pro since we, uh, got back from the Bahamas, but it had gotten so buggy, it’s gotten–it had slowed down so badly that I figured that–


RICHARD: I knew something–something was wrong with it.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Do you have a–did, did you have any malware, uh, detecting software on there?

ALEX GOLDMAN: A lot of Windows, uh, Windows devices come with something called

Windows Defender.

RICHARD: Yeah, I think there is Windows Defender on that.


ALEX BLUMBERG: Is there anyway to look at Windows Defender and see if there’s anything…?

RICHARD: Yeah, let me, let me get the Surface Pro and I’ll fire that up. [long pause] Ok. I got Windows Defender up.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So, I’m going to ask you to do a full scan, if you can do a full scan. The problem is that a full scan takes awhile.



ALEX BLUMBERG: So what’s the verdict? Did it find anything?

RICHARD: “Scan completed on 718,851 items. No threats were detected on your PC during this scan.”

PJ: Interesting.



ALEX GOLDMAN: I’m legitimately so angry.

PJ: Why?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Like, I’m so frustrated by this.

PJ: Why?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Cause it’s just unanswerable.


PJ: It’s not unanswerable.

ALEX GOLDMAN: It’s obviously cannot be answered.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Uber was compromised. And they’re blaming it on me and my dad’s–my dad’s Surface Pro.

PJ: They found innocent, they found scapegoats in the Blumberg family.


RICHARD: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: Would Windows Defender definitely have found the spyware?

PJ: I mean–this is like, the default Windows antivirus program we’re talking about, so it totally could’ve missed something. I don’t know. The tablet still just feels like the most likely suspect to me. This stuff’s hard to actually say with any certainty. You know? It’s like trying to figure out who got you sick.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Kind of. I mean the virus analogy is actually very apt. It can make its way in from a million different places.

ALEX BLUMBERG: But if we were- if we–if we were just to backup some distance and look at this big picture: Uber, a multi-billion dollar company, employing I’m sure gazillions of cybersecurity experts to keep its data safe or the Blumberg family (laughs).

PJ: (laughs) Who are–



PJ: –sharp guys.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) But not very suspicious in general by nature.

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX GOLDMAN: So at this point, we thought had solved the problem.


RICHARD BLUMBERG: Thank you guys.


RICHARD: Alex, I love you. I’ll see you all later.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Love you too.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Based on all our reporting, our best guess was that Alex Blumberg’s Gmail had been hacked in Bermuda. But the fact that we couldn’t be 100% sure really bothered our senior producer, Phia Benin.

So for the next couple of weeks, she tried to figure out if there was any way to get more clarity.  And about a month later, Phia brought us into the studio to tell us what she’d learned.

PHIA: Okay—so, there was just this one part of the story that was still nagging me—which is, if you remember, Uber said they sent emails to Alex when the like, weird activity was happening in Moscow. And Alex said he never saw any of those emails. Like, he never got them.

PJ: Yeah, even in his trash can, like, nothing, nothing, nothing.

PHIA: So, I wrote Melanie Ensign, that woman who works at Uber, and I was like, “I have to find those emails. When did you send those emails?” And she wrote me back. She didn’t actually send me the emails that they’d sent to Alex Blumberg. She’s just sent me four time stamps for the different times those emails should’ve gone out. And as she sent that to me, I actually heard from another listener who told me about something that I didn’t realize existed. Which is that there’s a place in Google Support that says, “Restore user’s permanently deleted emails.”

PJ: That’s nuts.

ALEX GOLDMAN: I didn’t know that that existed either. Does it restore them from the beginning of time?

PJ: I bet you—you can get like a month.

PHIA: You get 25 days.

PJ: (whispers) Nice job, me.

PHIA: And, uh, I learned about this when there were like—the day when Alex was on vacation was 26 days ago.

PJ: Nooo!

ALEX GOLDMAN: Get—get out of here.

PHIA: Oh no, no. Sorry. 24 days ago.

PJ: Aaah!

PHIA: (Laughs)

PJ: What a rollercoaster, man!

PHIA: (laughing) Sorry. Yeah so, I could look back, but I had like this tiny window where I could still look back, and it’s actually you have to like, submit something to Google and then they like, uh, you know, like scrape their system and send you everything.

PJ: I’m literally picturing like, a hard drive at Google Headquarters that like, a conveyor belt is moving towards an incinerator.

PHIA: It feels totally like that. And so like, um, we immediately submitted something to them, they did the scrape, they—they like said, “Ok, now everything should be there.” And I started looking at Alex’s email with all the restored emails.

PJ: And?

PHIA: (pauses) Nothing!

PJ: Whoa.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Get outta here.


PHIA: No emails from Uber. Like, this was so frustrating. So, I got on the phone with somebody from Google customer support. And was like, “You guys have not restored all the emails. Like, I know for a fact there are these four emails from these four different specific times. I’m not seeing them in here. You guys are Google. You have to be able to find them.”

PJ: And what’d they say?

PHIA: And the guy was like, “You know, I’ve never—I’ve never seen this happen before. This is really strange.” And like, I got so frustrated.

And then he told me that there was a whole different way that we could be approaching this, that I didn’t actually need to be talking to him at all. Um, because Gimlet’s email is through a Google Business Account, that through the administrator, I could actually see all the emails coming in and out of Gimlet Media, I could see the subject lines, the like, who they were to and who they were from, and when they came in.

PJ: I’m just quickly thinking about like every email I’ve ever sent at work. I was like, “Eh, it’s Gmail. It’s all private.” Good to know.

PHIA: Yes. Ok, so, let me—let me quickly pull it up for you. Um, it’s actually called the Admin Console, and there’s a feature in here called “Reports.”

PJ: Ok.

PHIA: So, you go into reports and there’s a place for email log search. And now you can look for like, the four specific emails that we know Uber says that they sent to Alex Blumberg. Um. So we’ll put Uber in the “sender field” and Blumberg in the “recipient” field. Does one of you wanna lead—drive this?

PJ: I wanna do it.



PJ: Ok. So, I’m gonna hit search.

PHIA: Mhm.

PJ: Searching … Searching … Oh wow. So there’s one, two, three, four, five emails. So there’s many, but, they’re all just the ones from once Alex was like, “What’s going on with my thing?” “My account has an unrecognized charge,” “I can’t sign into my account,” “I can’t sign into my account,” “My account has an unrecognized charge.” And finally you get “Interview request: The case of the missing Uber account” (laughing).

ALEX GOLDMAN: I wrote that, uh, subject line.

PJ: Uh. So this is really interesting.

PHIA: Yes. This is when I changed from feeling like Google, scrape through your servers, find these emails to—

PJ: Uber.

PHIA: Maybe these emails never were sent.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Oh my god. This re—requires a dramatic sting. Like a dun dun dunnnn … Ok. I’ve done it. What happened?

PHIA: (Laughs)

PJ: So, yeah, this would seem to suggest that Uber either thinks they sent emails and didn’t send them. Or, in the worst scenario, is not telling the truth.

PHIA: Yeah.

PJ: Did you go back to Uber with this?

PHIA: (Long pause) Of course I did!

PJ: (Laughs)

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, what kind of—even I wouldn’t ask that question.

PJ: Uh, so what did they say?

PHIA: Ok, so, yesterday—

PJ: You got us?

PHIA: So I wrote her yesterday, and she wrote me back fairly quickly, and here’s what she said: “Hi Phia! Great news! We figured it out!”

PJ: Uh-huh…


PHIA: Alex’s—Alex’s password was part of a data dump that was sold online and tested by a bot script before being sold to the person who used it to request trips.

PJ: Wow.


PJ: Wait.

ALEX GOLDMAN: I’m still super confused…

PJ: Hold on—I have specifi—data dump? Whose data dump? Like she said “data dump on a botnet.” Like, are they saying, “Oh, things were actually breached?”

PHIA: So she followed up with a second email. And she said … let me see, “By the way, we found his account in data dumps from LinkedIn, Dropbox, and Myspace, which isn’t surprising since they announced previous data breaches. If he hasn’t changed those passwords recently he should.”


PJ: But we checked that.

PHIA: Right!

PJ: Wh-what did Uber say?

PHIA: Well, a couple hours ago, I came back into the studio with Alex Blumberg, who has a terrible head cold, and we called Uber.


MELANIE ENSIGN: Hi, this is Melanie.

PHIA: Hi Melanie, it’s Phia!

MELANIE: Hi! How are you?

PHIA: Um, I’m here with Alex and I’m recording our call.


MELANIE: Awesome! Hi Alex!

PHIA: Melanie said in order to solve this problem she needed to call in, like, the big guns.

MELANIE: We actually have an elite team within our security organization, uh, that deals specifically with account security and compromised accounts, um, and those types of issues. So I—I thought, “Why don’t I go spend some time with them and let’s actually do a legitimate forensics investigation and figure out what’s happened?”


PHIA: Um, what happened?

MELANIE: It turns out the initial email address that was actually associated with your account—


MELANIE: —was your former email address from This American Life.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Ohhhhhhhhh.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

PHIA: (Laughs)

PJ: So this is like his old work email address.

PHIA: Right.

MELANIE: So the notifications saying, “Your email address has been changed,” “Your phone number has been changed,” “Your password has been changed,” were all going to that address.

ALEX BLUMBERG: To the address. Which is no longer even active. Which is a dead email address.

MELANIE: So those notifications are essentially going into the void.

PJ: Can I also just say this out loud so I make sure that I understand it?

PHIA: Yeah.

PJ: Ok. Basically, all that happened was Alex Blumberg forgot that years ago, when he signed up for Uber, he used an old work email address.

PHIA: Mhm.

PJ: He also forgot that he used to use the same password for everything, including a bunch of websites that have since been hacked.

And so hackers got his password from one of those websites, and they used it to break into his Uber and steal his rides, and then when Uber tried to warn Alex that this was happening, they emailed the address that they had on file, which was his old work email address. So he never saw it. And, also the hackers might have had access to that anyway.

PHIA: Yeah, and finding that out, it was like, everything all of a sudden started to click, like, remember how he didn’t have his ride receipts?

PJ: Yeah! I remember when we were talking about this like, off-mic, there was a point where he was like—he was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t get ride receipts.”

PHIA: Right. Everybody was like, “Hold on.”

PJ: And, we were like, “But everybody—everybody gets ride receipts.”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, of course you don’t.

PJ: But he was, they were just going to his old email account.

PHIA: Right.

PJ: Also, when we searched haveibeenpwned, we searched alex@gimletmedia, we didn’t search his old email address.

PHIA: Right. And if you do search that old email address, it has three breaches to it. It’s been pwned three times.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Are they—are they LinkedIn, Myspace, and Dropbox?

PHIA: Yes.

PJ: So there you go.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Wow, so we were not just wrong, but we were like double-extra-super wrong.

PHIA: Well, I think like, we were inventing something very complicated because with the data we had that was the most likely outcome.

PJ: Yeah.

PHIA: Or like, the most likely how it happened.

PJ: Did Alex—how did Alex react to all of this?

PHIA: Alex is so thrilled to actually have an answer to like—to know exactly what happened to his account.

PHIA: You feel like “case closed”?

ALEX BLUMBERG: I do! I feel like case closed.

PHIA: Yeah.


PHIA: Took us a long time.

ALEX BLUMBERG: All it took was like dozens of engineers at Google, dozens of engineers at Uber, the entire staff of Reply All, a bunch of—a handful—

PHIA: (Laughs) Actually like, all of our listeners.

ALEX BLUMBERG: A bunch of listeners to Reply All, a handful of staff members at uh, at uh—at Gimlet, and my father.

PHIA: Yeah.


PHIA: Yeah.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Man! It makes it—so on the one hand, that’s great. On the other hand it’s like, what if you don’t have that at your disposal? Like, what are you supposed to do?

PHIA: You have to live with a lot more mystery in your life, I guess. And get a password manager.


PHIA: Yeah.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Boy, is there a lesson to this, isn’t there?

PHIA: There really is.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (Laughing) Yeah…

PHIA: And I don’t have one either. We’re both the worst. Ok.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (Laughs) Ok. Wait, should we just get one right now?

PHIA: A password manager?

ALEX BLUMBERG: I’m—I’m sitting in front of a computer.

PHIA: Oh my god, I don’t want to.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I don’t either.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Coming up after the break, the revelation that sent us back to this story.


ALEX GOLDMAN: So everything you’ve heard up until now was part of our original reporting this past spring. And then, just a couple weeks ago, we started getting an avalanche of messages from listeners that were all saying the same thing: Have you seen the news?

News had just broken that hackers had stolen tons of Uber user data. 57 million users were affected, and the company hadn’t told anyone. They’d covered it up for a year. We wanted to know: Had they actually lied to us? Was Alex Blumberg not responsible for his account being stolen? So, I brought Alex and PJ back into the studio.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Hey, Alex Blumberg.


ALEX GOLDMAN: We need to talk.


ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)


ALEX GOLDMAN: Uh– go ahead.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Is this is a conversation where I’m going to feel sad and old and stupid at the end, or is this a conversation where I’m going to feel vindicated in my belief that a major, large corporation was lying to me?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Well as soon as I heard the news, I reached out to Uber. I contacted Melanie Ensign, who we talked to for the first story.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And she wrote back to me and said, “At the moment, our teams are in going through the necessary disclosure process & investigations with regulators, so I’m not able to provide an interview until that requirement is complete”.”

PJ: Ok

ALEX GOLDMAN: But, Alex Blumberg, I do have an answer for you, because I talked to a bunch of other people: people at Uber who didn’t want to be named, security experts, journalists, and I was able to put together a pretty clear picture of how this whole thing actually went down.

PJ: Ok.

And here’s the story I learned.

In fall of 2016, Uber gets an email. The email says, “I have a bunch of your information. Give me $100,000.”

ALEX BLUMBERG: (whispering) $100,000?

PJ: It’s like when Dr. Evil in Austin Powers doesn’t ask for enough money (laughing).

ALEX GOLDMAN: One million. I’m embarrassed for actually having done the uh–

ALEX BLUMBERG: It’s like so weird. It’s- I know it’s so bizarre that that’s my first thing to go to, but like, literally, that my first thought was like, “Hacker, ask for more money. It’s Uber!”

PJ: They probably spent that on their holiday party decorations.


ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughing) What a weird—you’re probably right.


ALEX GOLDMAN: So in Uber’s statement, they said that there were two hackers involved in this hack.


ALEX GOLDMAN: What happened was there was a guy who was really interested in trying to get access to the GitHub accounts of Uber employees. Do you know what GitHub is?

ALEX BLUMBERG: Uh huh. It’s a programming thing.

PJ: It’s where you go, uh, it’s sort of like, uh, “I’m working on a project, and I want to collaborate with strangers. So that’s where we’ll collaborate.”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Right, you can public ones and private ones. And so he hired like a mercenary second hacker to help him break into one of these accounts.


ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s the extent of that second person’s involvement.

ALEX BLUMBERG: He put together a team, basically. He’s like, “I need a GitHub hack man” or something.

PJ: It’s like Oceans 2

ALEX GOLDMAN: Oceans 2! That’s exactly right

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) Ok

ALEX GOLDMAN: The hacker gets on this Github account, looks through some of the code on there, and finds the login information for a server. He hops on that server, and that’s where the hacker finds all the data of these Uber accounts.


ALEX GOLDMAN: And this had happened to Uber before: In 2014, another Hacker broke in again using GitHub. Although that time, it was driver data and the company actually disclosed it. Anyway. So Uber finds itself in this situation where there’s someone out there with a bunch of their data who’s asking for $100,000 .


ALEX GOLDMAN: So I mean, Uber could send the police after this guy, but there’s a good chance that news of this breach is going to get out if they do that. Now we can’t say exactly why Uber did what they did next but it definitely solved that problem.

They decide to go with this loophole that lets everyone in this situation get what they want.


ALEX GOLDMAN: They say to this hacker, “Hey we have this program where we work with hackers, legally — it’s called a bug bounty program. And what a bug bounty program is…”

PJ: It’s like, “If you find a hole in our fence, basically, and you tell us about it, we’ll pay you. Rather than breaking in and stealing our stuff, if you want to look for security flaws, there’s a bounty on it.”

ALEX GOLDMAN: Right. And so they say to this person, “Rather than holding this stuff for ransom, enter into our bug bounty program, and we will give you a reward.”

PJ: Which is not, that is the falsest distinction in the world. It’s like, “I’m not paying a kidnapper’s ransom, but if we call it babysitting that I didn’t ask for, then I can pay you it and it’s fine.” Like, it’s a very window-dressing distinction.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Ok. So, alright, so they say, they have him enter the bug-bounty/ransom program.

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: Their bug-bounty/legal ransom program.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Uber actually works with this third party company that’s called HackerOne. And I spoke to the co-founder, this guy named Alex Rice. And he showed me the Uber bug bounty page. And um, the first thing I noticed right away is that they have like an average bounty reward and it is– Well, why don’t I just show you guys.

PJ: Ok. Finally, thank God. We finally get to see the average bug bounty rewards.

ALEX BLUMBERG: (laughs) Ok.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So they’re bounty statistics.


ALEX GOLDMAN: Average bug bounty range is between $500 and $540, and the top bug bounty range is like $10,000.

PJ: So $100,000, not a typical bug bounty. Something that looks a little more like, if you had to put an adjective on it, ransom-y.

ALEX GOLDMAN: I confirmed that $100,00 is the most that uber had ever paid for a bounty.

The second thing that I learned is that in order to get a payment from HackerOne, the hacker can’t just be a–an anonymous nobody on the internet. They have to fill out like tax forms, they have to fill out IRS questionnaires, they have to give a ton of identifying information to this company.

PJ: And then does HackerOne hold onto that, or does Uber get to find out about it?

ALEX GOLDMAN: Uber gets it

ALEX BLUMBERG: So who was it?

ALEX GOLDMAN: I was told it was a guy who was relatively young, in his early 20s. He was not like an IT computer professional, he was just some kid.

PJ: So it wasn’t like a super hacker.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Right. Uber makes this guy sign this thing, saying that if this information  makes it out into the world, he is on the hook. They will turn him over to the authorities. And he entered into an agreement with Uber where he allowed Uber onto his computer to run some forensic accounting to make sure all the data was gone.

PJ: And they know that they’re safe, also, because of the “One Computer, One Person” law that was passed last year, which says that every person is only allowed to own one computer.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Exactly. My point exactly. (laughs)

PJ: And never use another computer.

ALEX BLUMBERG: Yes! Which would be great in a world without cloud computing, or hard drives, or other computers or anything.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Yeah, I talked to people in computer forensics, and they told me it was impossible to know beyond a shadow of a doubt whether this hacker copied this information elsewhere or not. But apparently, Uber was satisfied with the investigation, and as a last step, they went through all the accounts that were affected by the breach and flagged them. So on their–

PJ: What does it mean that they flagged the accounts?

ALEX GOLDMAN: What it means is, they have internally a record of all the accounts that were in this breach, so if any of those get hacked, they can look at it and say, “Oh! There’s a pattern of these accounts getting hacked. This information might’ve gotten out.”

PJ: I see. So it’s kind of the way to make sure that the hacker, who they paid off to not tell people about the hack that they did, is keeping up their end of this completely absurd bargain.

ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s correct. (pauses) Alex Blumberg.


ALEX GOLDMAN: This brings us back to your case.

A source at Uber told me that your account did not have a flag on it. Which would mean that your account info was not stolen by this hacker. And that means that it’s still your fault.


PJ: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: Son of a bitch!

PJ: (laughs)

ALEX BLUMBERG: Are you serious?

ALEX GOLDMAN: I am serious.


ALEX GOLDMAN: As far as we know, your This American Life account was compromised on some other website, and that is how the Russian passenger ended up with your Uber account.

PJ: Ok but just like, I understand Uber is not responsible for Alex’s problem. Alex is responsible for Alex’s problem. But like, putting that aside, they lied to us. Like I don’t understand why knowing what we know now, we should trust them as a company, like whatever they say.

ALEX GOLDMAN: Well I mean. Ok. First of all, just to be very clear, in the first part of the episode, Joseph Cox says that he specifically asked Uber if they’ve had a breach.

PJ: Yes and they said no.

ALEX GOLDMAN: So just to to give more context: He asked them that question in 2015 before this hack took place.

PJ: Ok.

ALEX GOLDMAN: To your larger question about whether they lied to us. I feel like it’s a lie of omission. Like it doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t make me feel like, “Oh, OK. well they’re on the up and up.” But I don’t think that it was an explicit lie, where they said we did not experience a breach when in fact they did.

PJ: Like you feel like they didn’t lie in like a legalistic sense of it.


PJ: But you like they were dishonest.

ALEX GOLDMAN: That’s correct. But, if you were to ask Uber they’d say, “Look we voluntarily disclosed this hack.”


ALEX GOLDMAN: And that was the decision of their new CEO who, in addition to voluntarily disclosing this hack, fired the chief security officer and a top lawyer, and has very publicly said like “We are Uber 2.0, and we are changing as a company.”

Travis Kalanick, who was the previous CEO, has resigned.

On the other hand, Travis Kalanick is still on the board of directors at Uber. And Uber 2.0 hasn’t been exactly been forthcoming about the way that they’ve handled this hack. Like they haven’t sent emails to the affected users saying like, “Hey maybe you might want to change your password.”

PJ: Which is really frustrating because it’s like they’re just saying like “We’re holding the cards. You don’t have a choice.” Like you don’t even get to know.

I don’t know–I just. Ugh. I hate it. I just hate the impunity of it so much.

Like, basically I want them to say that we’re entitled to an explanation of why they did this in the first place. I want them to say like, really, really, like, “This is the calculation we made. Like, this is how we sat down, as cynical as it was or not, like, this was the argument against it, this was the argument for it. It was a mistake to lie–to not tell the truth, and we did it because of this, and we wouldn’t do it now because of that. And categorically there’s not another thing like this that’s sitting there waiting to be discovered. And if it is–uh, we’ll set all the cars on fire and go home.”


ALEX GOLDMAN: It seems like it would be really mean to set the cars of your contractors on fire.

PJ: I just want accountability.



ALEX BLUMBERG: I don’t know why you’re so upset–I should be the one who is so upset because–I–

ALEX GOLDMAN: You came in here–you came in here feeling like you were carrying the righteous sword of truth.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I was like, I thought vindication finally is mine.

ALEX GOLDMAN: And you still got owned.

ALEX BLUMBERG: I still got owned.

ALEX GOLDMAN: (laughs)


ALEX GOLDMAN: Reply All is hosted by PJ Vogt and me, Alex Goldman. Our show is produced by Sruthi Pinnamaneni, Phia Bennin, and Damiano Marchetti. We’re edited by Tim Howard. Additional production help from Khrista Rypl. Our intern is Anna Foley. We were mixed by Rick Kwan. Happy birthday, Rick! Our theme music is by the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder, and our ad music is by Build Buildings. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Special thanks this week to Claire Tibbs, Daniel Boteanu, Mike Isaac, and Greg Bensinger. Matt Lieber is a room that is at the perfect temperature.

You can visit our website at, and you can find more episodes of the show on iTunes or Spotify or wherever you would like to listen to podcasts. We’ll have a link to an article about the best password managers on our website, Also, there’s a survey at that we’re asking people to fill out right. Filling out the survey helps us find advertisers for the show, so if you have the notion, go ahead and fill it out. Thank you for listening. We’ll see you next week.

Reply All Presents: Heavyweight

Today we bring you an episode from one of our favorite shows, Heavyweight.

November 30, 2017


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